6 ms·

I'm going to say it first, I'm sure others will be thinking it. This is the WORST type of comment on HN. Tobacco was invented in 5000 BC according to wikipedi

I'm going to say it first, I'm sure others will be thinking it. This is the WORST type of comment on HN. Tobacco was invented in 5000 BC according to wikipedia. At that point in time it had basically none of the bad side effects you mention due to shorter life spans. It probably had numerous positive side effects. Now you don't like facebook??? Well, honestly, I do. I like it to keep in touch with people and it had real value to me when I moved to a city where I didn't know a single person as it made me feel less alone. I'm sure many others have benefited. Judging a startup, company, etc. because you don't see the value shows you are overly judgmental and immature. The product market has been very good at delivering value over the last 7,000+ years. Let it do its job and try to get off your high horse. The companies mentioned are highly successful. If you think you can do it, feel free to do it, donate the cash you make to Watsi and sit in your recliner while enjoying how good of a person you are. Otherwise, make a comment that adds value like the OP did. Full disclaimer: I couldn't care less about any of the companies mentioned, I'm just sick of reading comments like this. [edit] added an n't to could

ryguytilidie 14y ago
I don't feel like "but I like it, so your argument is wrong" is a very good counter-argument to "facebook makes human interactions worse".
- wtvanhest 14y ago
  wrong. I'm describing the value I get. The fact that I get value means it does have value. My guess is that some of the other millions of users also get value. That is a fair guess. His/her comment is ridiculous.
  - ryguytilidie 14y ago
    Right, and my point was simply that you getting value does not invalidate the argument that this may or may not be bad for humanity. I'm sure pretty much everyone who uses it gets a non-zero amount of value from it, but the person, right or wrong, was arguing about the negatives outweighing the value, not whether or not there was value.
    - dakrisht 14y ago
      Exactly. You might get value from doing heroin like millions of others, but that doesn't means it's good for people/humanity. I'm not saying FB doesn't have value (it does because it connects people) but I, for one, remember the world being a better place without FB as many others would most likely agree here on HN. More importantly, innovation had more value when 1000 people were trying to create software/hardware/services to help people vs. 1000 instagram and social networking clones for a quick Series round or exit.
  - PavlovsCat 14y ago
    You are describing the value you think you are getting. Someone else describes the value they think you are getting. What is ridiculous and what is not kind of depends on how well they observe and how well you reflect.
schackbrian 14y ago
You make an interesting point about the shorter lifespans when tobacco was first smoked. Wikipedia says cultivation sites in Mexico date back to 1400-1000 BC or possibly even further [0]. On the other hand, you say, "This is the WORST type of comment on HN...I'm just sick of reading comments like this." Please try to be civil -- Hacker News normally has such a positive community. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tobacco http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tobacco
- wtvanhest 14y ago
  "Smoking's history dates back to as early as 5000–3000 BC when the agricultural product began to be cultivated in South America; consumption later evolved into burning the plant substance either by accident or with intent of exploring other means of consumption." I am willing to be a real asshole for the first time on HN because I just don't get this type of comment. This is constantly garbage and it makes me so frustrated to see people who think they are better than someone else because they decided to pursue what they think is right whether or not they are actually right.
  - schackbrian 14y ago
    You are correct about the dates –– I found the article that you were quoting [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoking
  - porker 14y ago
    > I am willing to be a real asshole for the first time on HN because I just don't get this type of comment. This is constantly garbage and it makes me so frustrated to see people who think they are better than someone else because they decided to pursue what they think is right whether or not they are actually right. Do you ever stop to think what the impact of technology on society, and human relations, is? It's not 'garbage' - it's not proven right either, as society hasn't disintegrated any further than the 17th or 18th century, but I do see an impact in how little people talk to each other, in the addiction to feel-good gratification (or instant gratification - why else am I reading HN?), and in attention span. To my reading the OP doesn't think they are better than others. When you've had a chance to reflct I'd be interested to know the reasons behind your reaction.
setrofim_ 14y ago
> Tobacco was invented in 5000 BC according to wikipedia. At that point in time it had basically none of the bad side effects you mention due to shorter life spans. It probably had numerous positive side effects. Another reason that tobacco historically had "basically none of the bad side effects" is that people didn't smoke it nearly in the quantities they do today. Then a few startups (well, they weren't called that back then) came along and it "has made a small number of people incomprehensibly rich, to the great detriment of humanity". > Now you don't like facebook??? Well, honestly, I do. I like it to keep in touch with people and it had real value to me when I moved to a city where I didn't know a single person as it made me feel less alone. I'm sure many others have benefited. Strawman. Nowhere in his post jdietrich mentions Facebook. > The companies mentioned are highly successful. No one argues that these companies aren't successful. The argument is that the fact that they are highly successful does not mean that they are a good for society as a whole. > I could care less about any of the companies mentioned You mean, you couldn't care less, right? :P (Sorry, that particular Americanism is a pet peeve of mine.)
- silvertonia 14y ago
  I have nothing to add to the discussion at large, so... I find the phrase, "I could care less" charming. I'm not sure if it was originally intended as simple sarcasm (or more likely a misspoken phrase) but to me in its form it has a gentle subtlety. A slightly tongue-in-cheek, "typically when discussing the amount I care about a topic, it falls within an average range. However on this particular topic, I care for it so little that I must be explicit that it would actually be possible for me to care less. For a more meaningful topic, such a statement wouldn't be necessary."
- justinhj 14y ago
  > You mean, you couldn't care less, right? :P (Sorry, that particular Americanism is a pet peeve of mine.) "I could care less" is an American idiom, and this is a US site. Ad hominem.
  - hnriot 14y ago
    It's US hosted, but it's certainly used by people in many countries, what does it even mean to say it is a US site? The network makes geography meaningless. PG could host it in Sunnyvale or Singapore and none of us would notice or care. Ok some would notice, this is hn after all.
md224 14y ago
What's wrong with raising concerns about the big-picture societal effects of the technology that we're creating? Many things can provide value but also come with a high price. This doesn't make them immune from criticism.
jdietrich 14y ago
Tobacco was not a particularly great cause of morbidity and mortality until the invention of the cigarette rolling machine. The cheap, mass-produced cigarette offered an instant hit of nicotine which was more convenient than pipes and more affordable than cigars. Tobacco is a natural leaf that became a mass killer because it was packaged in small, easy to consume units that provided an instant dopamine hit, then relentlessly marketed. I feel it is an extremely good analogy to the current crop of 'social' startups. Businesses exist in order to make profits for their shareholders; The benefit they provide for their customers or society is merely a happy coincidence. Until the Pure Food and Drug Act, most medicines did more harm than good. Asbestos was incredibly profitable for a great many businesses. I have every right to criticise a business if I believe their product is harmful, regardless of how popular or successful that business might be. To do so does not make me judgemental or immature, but simply an engaged citizen. The belief that all successful products are socially beneficial is clearly absurd.
- tomhoward 14y ago
  Yeah, ok. But none of this is what Dustin's post was about. The post was about people asking him if he thought their product could be successful, and how he mistakenly dismissed them as being destined to fail. Your views maybe valid, but your commentary is off topic.
  - goblin89 14y ago
    OP talks about successful products and stupid ideas, and jdietrich questions OP's definition of these terms. I don't see how this is off-topic.
    - enraged_camel 14y ago
      It isn't off-topic. User 'tomhoward' just has a very narrow view of the world.
- pekk 14y ago
  Many natural leaves are mildly or severely poisonous, and anything that someone enjoys (or which even surprises them, or involves motor function) can cause a 'dopamine hit'. The pureness or naturalness of tobacco really isn't the issue and neither is dopamine.

ryguytilidie 14y ago

I don't feel like "but I like it, so your argument is wrong" is a very good counter-argument to "facebook makes human interactions worse".

wtvanhest 14y ago
wrong. I'm describing the value I get. The fact that I get value means it does have value. My guess is that some of the other millions of users also get value. That is a fair guess. His/her comment is ridiculous.
- ryguytilidie 14y ago
  Right, and my point was simply that you getting value does not invalidate the argument that this may or may not be bad for humanity. I'm sure pretty much everyone who uses it gets a non-zero amount of value from it, but the person, right or wrong, was arguing about the negatives outweighing the value, not whether or not there was value.
  - dakrisht 14y ago
    Exactly. You might get value from doing heroin like millions of others, but that doesn't means it's good for people/humanity. I'm not saying FB doesn't have value (it does because it connects people) but I, for one, remember the world being a better place without FB as many others would most likely agree here on HN. More importantly, innovation had more value when 1000 people were trying to create software/hardware/services to help people vs. 1000 instagram and social networking clones for a quick Series round or exit.
- PavlovsCat 14y ago
  You are describing the value you think you are getting. Someone else describes the value they think you are getting. What is ridiculous and what is not kind of depends on how well they observe and how well you reflect.

schackbrian 14y ago

You make an interesting point about the shorter lifespans when tobacco was first smoked. Wikipedia says cultivation sites in Mexico date back to 1400-1000 BC or possibly even further [0]. On the other hand, you say, "This is the WORST type of comment on HN...I'm just sick of reading comments like this." Please try to be civil -- Hacker News normally has such a positive community. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tobacco http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tobacco

wtvanhest 14y ago
"Smoking's history dates back to as early as 5000–3000 BC when the agricultural product began to be cultivated in South America; consumption later evolved into burning the plant substance either by accident or with intent of exploring other means of consumption." I am willing to be a real asshole for the first time on HN because I just don't get this type of comment. This is constantly garbage and it makes me so frustrated to see people who think they are better than someone else because they decided to pursue what they think is right whether or not they are actually right.
- schackbrian 14y ago
  You are correct about the dates –– I found the article that you were quoting [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoking
- porker 14y ago
  > I am willing to be a real asshole for the first time on HN because I just don't get this type of comment. This is constantly garbage and it makes me so frustrated to see people who think they are better than someone else because they decided to pursue what they think is right whether or not they are actually right. Do you ever stop to think what the impact of technology on society, and human relations, is? It's not 'garbage' - it's not proven right either, as society hasn't disintegrated any further than the 17th or 18th century, but I do see an impact in how little people talk to each other, in the addiction to feel-good gratification (or instant gratification - why else am I reading HN?), and in attention span. To my reading the OP doesn't think they are better than others. When you've had a chance to reflct I'd be interested to know the reasons behind your reaction.

setrofim_ 14y ago

> Tobacco was invented in 5000 BC according to wikipedia. At that point in time it had basically none of the bad side effects you mention due to shorter life spans. It probably had numerous positive side effects. Another reason that tobacco historically had "basically none of the bad side effects" is that people didn't smoke it nearly in the quantities they do today. Then a few startups (well, they weren't called that back then) came along and it "has made a small number of people incomprehensibly rich, to the great detriment of humanity". > Now you don't like facebook??? Well, honestly, I do. I like it to keep in touch with people and it had real value to me when I moved to a city where I didn't know a single person as it made me feel less alone. I'm sure many others have benefited. Strawman. Nowhere in his post jdietrich mentions Facebook. > The companies mentioned are highly successful. No one argues that these companies aren't successful. The argument is that the fact that they are highly successful does not mean that they are a good for society as a whole. > I could care less about any of the companies mentioned You mean, you couldn't care less, right? :P (Sorry, that particular Americanism is a pet peeve of mine.)

silvertonia 14y ago
I have nothing to add to the discussion at large, so... I find the phrase, "I could care less" charming. I'm not sure if it was originally intended as simple sarcasm (or more likely a misspoken phrase) but to me in its form it has a gentle subtlety. A slightly tongue-in-cheek, "typically when discussing the amount I care about a topic, it falls within an average range. However on this particular topic, I care for it so little that I must be explicit that it would actually be possible for me to care less. For a more meaningful topic, such a statement wouldn't be necessary."
justinhj 14y ago
> You mean, you couldn't care less, right? :P (Sorry, that particular Americanism is a pet peeve of mine.) "I could care less" is an American idiom, and this is a US site. Ad hominem.
- hnriot 14y ago
  It's US hosted, but it's certainly used by people in many countries, what does it even mean to say it is a US site? The network makes geography meaningless. PG could host it in Sunnyvale or Singapore and none of us would notice or care. Ok some would notice, this is hn after all.

md224 14y ago

What's wrong with raising concerns about the big-picture societal effects of the technology that we're creating? Many things can provide value but also come with a high price. This doesn't make them immune from criticism.

jdietrich 14y ago

Tobacco was not a particularly great cause of morbidity and mortality until the invention of the cigarette rolling machine. The cheap, mass-produced cigarette offered an instant hit of nicotine which was more convenient than pipes and more affordable than cigars. Tobacco is a natural leaf that became a mass killer because it was packaged in small, easy to consume units that provided an instant dopamine hit, then relentlessly marketed. I feel it is an extremely good analogy to the current crop of 'social' startups. Businesses exist in order to make profits for their shareholders; The benefit they provide for their customers or society is merely a happy coincidence. Until the Pure Food and Drug Act, most medicines did more harm than good. Asbestos was incredibly profitable for a great many businesses. I have every right to criticise a business if I believe their product is harmful, regardless of how popular or successful that business might be. To do so does not make me judgemental or immature, but simply an engaged citizen. The belief that all successful products are socially beneficial is clearly absurd.

tomhoward 14y ago
Yeah, ok. But none of this is what Dustin's post was about. The post was about people asking him if he thought their product could be successful, and how he mistakenly dismissed them as being destined to fail. Your views maybe valid, but your commentary is off topic.
- goblin89 14y ago
  OP talks about successful products and stupid ideas, and jdietrich questions OP's definition of these terms. I don't see how this is off-topic.
  - enraged_camel 14y ago
    It isn't off-topic. User 'tomhoward' just has a very narrow view of the world.
pekk 14y ago
Many natural leaves are mildly or severely poisonous, and anything that someone enjoys (or which even surprises them, or involves motor function) can cause a 'dopamine hit'. The pureness or naturalness of tobacco really isn't the issue and neither is dopamine.