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The McDonald's Theory of Bad Ideas
- superkamiguru 13y agoI've had two different experiences like this. The first is a co-worker that did a different tactic. When someone would ask him if he wanted to get lunch and no idea of where to go, he would ask "rice or noodle?" This somehow always lead us going to a place that had neither of those things. From what I've seen, the inverse of this seems to also imply where a group will end up going for lunch. I've had co-workers say Costco or Taco Bell "isn't lunch". Because of those negative statements, that is exactly where the group ends up going.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- obviouslygreen 13y agoThe problem I have with this starts as soon as the author insists that the second step is "always" easier than the first, and implicates that first step as somehow being a time sink. As soon add you say "always" you are almost certainly wrong, and you have most likely missed something important, or at least relevant. This article dismisses a huge breadth of ideas and processes simply because sometimes it is effective to skip them.
- r00fus 13y agoso s/always/often/ the fact remains that the first step is often the most difficult. It's a pattern - applicable to any "analysis paralysis" scenario - break the ice by suggesting a lowest-common-denominator (bad) suggestion, and let others be the "winners" by suggesting "acceptable" choices. By suggesting the unseemly, you actually end up doing the graceful thing.
- brucehart 13y agoI use a technique like this when I am stuck trying to write code and can't figure out how to do it efficiently. I ask myself "what is the worst possible way to implement this function?" and start writing that. Sure enough, that gets my mind going almost immediately and I start thinking of the improvements needed to turn it into good code.
- Xcelerate 13y agoHaha, I know that feeling. "How on earth am I supposed to implement this?" usually turns into: for (int i = 0; i < alpha; ++i) { for (int j = 0; j < beta; ++j) { for (int k = 0; k < gamma; ++k) { ...
- Twisol 13y agoI do this too, except I call it a "rope bridge". Write the simplest thing possible, even if it doesn't do everything you need, and then start iterating. The rope bridge will quickly become much more solid. The danger is that you leave the solution at too early a stage, and other things start relying on your flimsy rope bridge. It gets really difficult to go back and do things better.
- GhotiFish 13y agoThat's test driven development sans the testing. You should try test driven development :)
- mjcohen 13y agoInteresting how TDD is so close to TTD.
- Shish2k 13y ago> Interesting how TDD is so close to TTD For me, "TTD" in the context of a discussion about bridges just means Transport Tycoon Deluxe o_O I assume that's not it?
- TeMPOraL 13y agoOr, maybe that's where the power of TDD comes from, and not from tests ;).
- GhotiFish 13y agoIn my experience the tests work pretty well, as well. and if you're already developing in a style that is amenable to TDD, you should totally try it!
- flatline 13y agoOf course, there is the risk that everyone thinks McDonalds is a swell idea, and then no one will ever do anything nicer for lunch ever again. Not to stretch the analogy too far, but I have had this happen both literally and figuratively.
- vacri 13y agoIf it backfires, then all you need to do is next time say "let's do something different".
- flatline 13y agoOnce a precedent has been established, it can be hard to change people's minds, especially if it was fast/easy/convenient the first time around. It really depends on the group.
- designflip 13y agoI think it works well in the writer's case. He knows his audience and has probably worked with them long enough to know where they like to go to eat. He's not taking the risk of McDonald's every day. There wasn't a chance that would happen anyway because even if one or two person wanted to go to McDonalds two days in a row, the group would win out and override it.
- ffn 13y agoAs the guys who usual says "that's a swell idea", or "yeah, I'm down for some McNuggets" to really gross food decisions (masochism, I don't know), I personally love it when other folks throw out these "sequestration" choices because it's usually the only way to get everyone to go to McDonalds.
- mbetter 13y agoI actually could go for some McNuggets right now.
- melling 13y agoIsn't this just a "straw man concept?" Just throw out some idea, even it it's bad just to get the conversation going?
- stephengillie 13y agoIt is very much a "straw man" argument -- the straw man being that the first suggestion has to be terrible. I've used this strategy many times, but instead I'll make an actual suggestion, like a more popular burger chain, or a sandwich chain.
- bravura 13y agoRelated hack: When you can't make progress and choose between two comparable options, Dan Ariely (behavioral economist) recommends you flip a coin. As you flip it, the impact of a potential decision might prompt you to realize the outcome you truly want. However, there is a caveat: "The coin trick is indeed only useful for cases where the two options are of the same type (two cameras, two movies, etc). In your example, one option is more tempting in the short term (chocolate cake) while the other is better in the long term (fruit). In such cases we should not trust our gut feelings to drive us to the best decisions." http://danariely.com/2013/01/05/ask-ariely-on-stretching-time-coining-decisions-and-gifts-of-effort-not-money/ http://danariely.com/2013/01/05/ask-ariely-on-stretching-tim...
- riffic 13y agoThis is the Arnold Rothstein method of decision making, as seen on Boardwalk Empire. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6WYsM1nIbKs#t=54s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v...
- mjcohen 13y agoPiet Hein wrote a grook about this. It essentially says "don't look at what the coin flip says; look at how you feel about the result of the flip."
- Aqueous 13y agoThe theory is correct, and I applaud the author for willing to be that guy, because if you do this too often you become the person who always has the worst idea.
- r00fus 13y agoAnd yet if the outing is good, the "worst idea guy" is always invited. Results matter.
- digz 13y agoThis was also the idea behind the sequester... somehow good ideas aren't exactly flowing.
- DigitalSea 13y agoI get the theory behind recommending the worse idea so that people recommend something that isn't nearly as bad but what is so bad about McDonald's? Here in Australia there aren't many fast food establishments opened at 3am besides McDonald's and when you're driving to work or had a night out on the town which is worse: dodgy kebab, slightly warm 3 day old curry or McDonald's? I tend to use a similar tactic when we're brainstorming internal project ideas especially. I'll come up with something really stupid to break the ice and then others feel better knowing their ideas probably aren't nearly as bad.
- pantaloons 13y agoThe use of McDonalds as idiomatic low quality trash is questionable too, I've found McDonalds in Australia and New Zealand is significantly higher quality than in the US. While it's still not a luxury brand by any means the restaurants do have a much more sophisticated atmosphere.
- saraid216 13y agoI suspect there's a fairly high variance within the US, too. I've never had a crappy McDonald's food, but I'm usually in an upper middle class suburb or downtown Seattle when I go.
- katbyte 13y agoI'm from BC and have had mcdonalds from downtown/suburb seattle* and it is pretty different, definitely not as high quality imho and a different taste too. Strangely having mcdonalds in eastern europe was more like canada then the US. *last time was a few years ago
- alwaysinshade 13y ago> what is so bad about McDonald's? Here in Australia [...] McDonald's Australia has excellent QA, process management and supply chain. I received some insight through someone...involved in all that good stuff (my background is QA/Environment so I get to meet some interesting people from various industries). Coworkers from the US all tend to say the same thing after going to an AU McDonald's - great burgers but ~3x the price. It's a different beast in the US where quantity trumps quality.
- mwfunk 13y agoI am much more likely to be frustrated by really having a hankering for some McDonald's and everyone else being the sort of people who haven't had fast food in 10 years, if ever in their entire life (pretty much my entire team). I try to appreciate both the finer and coarser things in life.
- pfitzsimmons 13y agoA related trick to avoid procrastination: I have often found myself procrastinating when needing to send an important, but non-urgent, email. Procrastination is often a result of fear. I realized that the procrastination came from a fear that I would phrase the email wrong, or get the tone wrong, and blow my chance at getting a favorable response. To avoid procrastination, I find it helpful to tell myself, "ok, I will just compose the email right now, that is all, and I can send it whenever I want tomorrow, the next day, no hurry." Of course, after composing the email, I almost always get over the fear and just end up sending it.
- Apocryphon 13y agoThat is an excellent productivity tip that can be applied to anything. I think what helps, especially for hackers, is to think of activities as a series of simulations before the actual action. There is less pressure when you were on sims, or drafts, or prototypes of the real thing. Such things can fail with far less consequences. So I guess rapid prototyping is one cure for procrastination.
- Guthur 13y agoMy take on this is that it is effective because it reduces peoples fear of suggesting an idea. We all feel something for our own genuine suggestions, a sort of ownership, and so fear the possibility of rejection as it would be a rejection of something personal to us, our preference. When someone suggests a universally and whole heartily rejected idea we can take a degree of security from that that our idea will not be as universally disliked; "Well it's not as bad as McDonald's" It's also possible that it just gets the "flow" going, which again is more to do with removing peoples fears i.e. "well, he suggested an idea and it wasn't so bad for him so I may as well suggest one as well"
- incision 13y agoI don't see this as a creative concern. Does anyone really think this group of coworkers, which almost surely eats something, somewhere eat day needs "inspiration" that they are truly bereft of ideas when this happens? I don't. They aren't out of ideas, they're avoiding blame - the inevitable bitching, disagreement or silent resentment that comes with making a choice. It's the same blame culture that screws up any number of workplaces only worse as there may be nothing so pressing and universally felt as something like the human need for sustenance. Projects are put off for days, weeks or years and they aren't universally felt when they remain undone. Individuals can't necessarily act to satiate themselves either, that could make them "cowboys". In the original analogy, silence is complacency, the stream of ideas is a reactive response and the question should really be about how to eliminate the blame culture and replace it with something proactive and productive.
- ripter 13y agoHaving been in this same situation at work and at home, I have to disagree with you. We go out to lunch several times a week, and unless someone is craving something, it almost always comes down to this. We use Subway instead of McDonalds, but the result is the same. There is no blame, we honestly can't think of where to eat until some idea is thrown out there. Then all of a sudden we remember that mexican place in the park, or the new burger joint that opened up a few weeks ago. We throw out suggestions and if we all agree, then we go. It just takes a little push to get the ball rolling.
- incision 13y agoSeems a bit much you all should consistently be unable to "think of where to eat" when the question is asked "several times a week". Does this pervasive forgetfulness show up everywhere in your lives? If so, you guys should probably be mulling over doctors, not lunch. If not, you might want to reconsider what I've suggested and why you so consistently "forget" in socially arbitrated situations.
- jonb 13y agoSpeaking of investigating life choices, you're coming off like an asshole. You might want to reconsider the way you talk to people. Here's the summary: 1. A post uses food as a metaphor* to make a point. 2. You basically say bullshit to the food, then rant about life. 3. Someone says "I dunno if it's BS, I've experienced this!" 4. And you say "then there's something wrong with you". Fuck you, buddy. *I'm the guy who wrote the essay, and for the record it was referring to a bunch of foodies in a design studio who were a few blocks from Pike Place market. It was Hick's Law in action. Frequently.
- austenallred 13y agoI like to think of brainstorming as a conveyer belt full of bad and good ideas. If you stop at the bad ones you don't let the good ones through either. You can't help what's on the belt, you just have to let it run. Don't stop the conveyor belt.
- programminggeek 13y agoI throw out ridiculous ideas all the time, but the thing is, a lot of the time they are only slightly exaggerated. A lot of times a truly bad idea has some good idea hidden just beneath the surface.
- yoster 13y agoI happen to like McDonald's every once in a while.
- mynameishere 13y agoThere are a few items on the menu specifically aimed at adults who would be otherwise reluctant to bring their children.
- yoster 13y agoChildren do love their happy meals though. There wouldn't be a plethora of these fast food places all over the world if the vast majority of people didn't like McDonald's. It isn't healthy to eat at everyday, but every once in a while is fine.
- nilkn 13y agoMcDonald's may not be healthy, but I've never had anything from one that was gross. (As an aside, many restaurants aren't necessarily any healthier than fast food.)
- pieguy 13y agoCongress tried this...and we got the sequester.
- Dove 13y agoMy coworkers used to call these "straw horses". Like straw men, but attacking them is supposed to take you somewhere.
- SagelyGuru 13y agoThis is a well known psychological effect. The "powers that be" use it all the time to force their will on an initially resisting population. They first propose an obviously draconian and unfair legislation, which is then, after a public outcry, mellowed down to the originally intended form. Hey presto, everyone is now happy about "the concessions and safeguards", forgetting that in the process they got something that they never wanted in the first place.
- Flenser 13y agoYou're describing the overton window http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
- potench 13y agoRather, SagelyGuru is describing how to manipulate an Overton window.
- dankoss 13y agoIn sales this is known as the anchoring effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring
- khill 13y agoAKA "Ask for the pony to get the dog".
- gertef 13y agoThat's called compromise.
- mpweiher 13y agoSort of like the interrogation technique demonstrated by the new "Sherlock": instead of asking questions that your opposite doesn't want to answer, make (false) assertions that they will want to disprove. Seemed very plausible to me.
- shinykitten 13y ago> people are inspired to come up with good ideas to ward off bad ones. Interesting theory, but I think something else is happening here. If you have a bunch of people trying to solve a problem, the game is implicitly defined as "propose the best solution." After the first proposal, the game changes to "improve on the best solution so far." This is something to keep in mind during interviews [1] for people on both sides of the table. If a candidate is silent for too long, propose a bad idea and ask them to improve on it. That gets them talking out loud, and you get more info to go on. If you're a candidate, you can start with a bad (yet probably obvious) solution and explain why it's bad. In the process of talking it through, you'll likely think of a better solution. [1] The algorithm/coding one-big-question-over-45-minutes style of interviews commonly conducted by large software companies.
- danielweber 13y agoNASA has spaceflight designs, and there are a lot of variables at play, so you can never really find "the best" mission. So they create a reference mission, and then compare candidates to that. Something doesn't have to be strictly better (if there were something strictly better they probably would have found it), but you then understand the trade-offs you are making from it.
- babuskov 13y ago+1. I think the same. People, esp. smart people judge their ideas as not so good, and won't even mention it. When you bring up McDonalds, the person suddenly thinks: Hey, I didn't know the bar was that low.
- jawr 13y agoSurely everything after is considered a good idea, because the it was bad; even if suggestions were repeated prior and post suggesting mc donalds, that suggestion is suddenly considered a better idea...
- iMark 13y agoI've worked on too many projects where I've received a spec and concluded that only a room full of people arguing without reaching agreement could have produced something so bad.
- lhnz 13y agoThis is because the only thing worse than being a leader, is having bad leadership.
- bwang8 13y agoIf you are working by yourself, this trick only works sometimes. If you have extreme apathy against your subject matter or absolutely no idea on what you should do, then putting down a bad idea would just result in a bad idea written down, and there is nothing that follows. I only experience partial success with this technique (in cases, where I have some idea on what I am doing, but I am just debating internally about minor details).
- rjknight 13y agoThis reminds me of a very similar idea from Scott Adams (creator of Dilbert): http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703293204576106164123424314.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870329320457610... Quote: I spent some time working in the television industry, and I learned a technique that writers use. It's called "the bad version." When you feel that a plot solution exists, but you can't yet imagine it, you describe instead a bad version that has no purpose other than stimulating the other writers to imagine a better version.
- sjtgraham 13y agoI happen to like McDonald's.
- tams 13y agoI always thought starting a discussion with a deliberately bad plan works because people always excel at criticizing existing ideas, but coming up with something new is harder. Creative discussion naturally emerges when there is something that can be improved upon.
- nshepperd 13y agoPerhaps throwing out a bad idea like McDonalds just lowers the bar so that the others don't have to worry about being looked down upon for having a bad suggestion. No-one wants to be the guy who says "I really like X" while everyone else thinks "X? How low-status."
- arbuge 13y agoIt certainly is easier to edit than create. You need at least one "creator" on a team with the initiative to get things going when they're stuck. After that, good "editors" can make for pretty effective team players also. ps. This article hurt my feelings as an MCD stockholder. :)
- prawks 13y agoI like the article for it's "get started rather than waiting for the perfect solution". However the McDonald's example makes the author sound like he's advocating proposing bad ideas. It's probably best if you don't present ideas that are intentionally awful (like his McDonald's recommendation). You'd just be sabotaging your reputation (you're now "that guy with all the bad ideas"). Get to work and don't be afraid to propose ideas you have.
- jonb 13y agoI wrote "here's a way to be less scared". And you're saying "just don't be scared". (shrug)
- bestest 13y agoI tried that with my girlfriend. Doesn't work. We always dine at McDonald's now.
- peterwwillis 13y agoArticle doesn't work in Opera Mini =(
- marknutter 13y agoI like McDonald's. It's cheap, consistent, and fast. I don't need to be a foodie for every damn lunch I have.
- papsosouid 13y agoMaybe it is just Canada, but I have been lucky to get 1/3 of those qualities from McDonald's lately. A big mac (just the sandwich, nothing else) is $5, and isn't very filling. Every other fast food place around here is just as cheap or cheaper, and very few are as low quality and inconsistent. It is hard to consider McDonald's the "cheap option" when a big mac and fries is $8, but a gyro and fries that taste way better, and are ~30% more food is $5 at the place across the street. McDonald's is actually the second most expensive fast food option I've found, only being cheaper than Mucho Burrito (which is far better food).
- VLM 13y agoThere's never really anything new in IT. Looking at past revolutions of the eternal IT wheel the next article will be about Fred Brook's "second system effect" where a simple 1st choice like McDonalds for lunch inevitably leads to a ridiculously overengineered second solution in reaction, like a $300/plate steakhouse or perhaps a strange ethnic restaurant for lunch 90 miles away. This article is basically a rehash of Fred Brooks "pilot system" concept where regardless of if they admit it or not, the first system design will be a throwaway which the team uses to gel their ideas around. Often the second system ends up like the above paragraph. As far as I know Brooks was the first turn of this eternal IT wheel, and he wrote this in the mid 70s about his experiences in the 60s. I'm still young enough that I suspect most of what Brooks invented in the 70s will be rediscovered many more times before I retire. As far as I know Brooks was not rehashing someone previous to him, I'd be interested to learn if anyone has older references. Its still a reasonably well written article, even if there's nothing new in it. Brooks's original writing is also pretty good, if you want to see the future of software development, what will be claimed to be "invented" over and over in future decades, you could do worse than "the mythical man month". The re-release is better than the original but not immensely so, so don't freak if your local library only has the first edition.
- Sakes 13y agoMaybe the concept is not new, but the example he uses is brilliant. Everybody eats, everybody has at one point or another tried to democratically decide where to eat, and everyone that likes food dislikes/hates McDonalds. The article is funny, it anchors the idea to a global brand, and so it will be easy to remember for anyone who reads it. I feel as if you read this as simply a rehash of known techniques, and what I saw was a light hearted/entertaining story, that anyone can relate to and take value from.
- specialist 13y agoI read the article differently. The OP is suggesting failing faster by starting with an idea, any idea, just to get moving. I've done something similar. I was a new minted engineering manager. We had lotsa grumpy gate keepers. Domain experts who would withhold information, but happy to snipe later on. So when it wasn't clear (to my immediate team) what to do, I'd add something really stupid, but plausible, to the requirements. Then claim the document was being sent to our dealer channel. Oh boy! Then I'd get the feedback I needed.
- calinet6 13y agoFantastic article. Love the Ann Lamott reference; read her book "Bird by Bird," from which the quote came; it really is great. Reading more into this article than "start with something and go from there" is reading too much.
- jonb 13y agotouches nose
- slinkyavenger 13y agoThe rest of his staff will one day refer to him as "that guy who really seems to like McDonalds"
- john_p 13y agoNice article. One factor that seems to overlook is the cost of an early decision that becomes impossible to change as the project matures as I descibe here: http://www.codingismycraft.com/2013/05/01/be-extra-cautious-of-early-decisions-in-your-development-cycle/ http://www.codingismycraft.com/2013/05/01/be-extra-cautious-...
- ericmoritz 13y agoWorks until you're forced to build a PHP site with GDBM as a backend because everyone but you thought it was a good idea.
- kimandre 13y agoI've done this online for a long time. I.e you start a forum thread but dont get any replies. Make a 2nd account replying a silly answer that is wrong - experts suddenly appear.
- therandomguy 13y agoHow bad is eating at McDonald's for you? If you just get a BigMac and diet coke, is it all that worse than any other food establishment?
- calhoun137 13y agoHere's the problem. If your team takes the time to really try and come up with something that everyone agreed they wanted to eat, then you all end up with a high quality lunch. If you just start with the worst idea and iterate from there you run the risk of getting something that has bugs in it which you don't even realize were there until much later when it's already too late.
- pilsetnieks 13y agoOn the other hand, you're anchoring on the worst possible idea. Afterwards even barely mediocre will seem pretty great compared to the McD idea.