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I remember hearing about France's 35-hour work-week (in the mid to late '90s I believe) and I'm curious if some of the Frenchmen here can tell us how eliminatin

by smoyer 14y ago

I remember hearing about France's 35-hour work-week (in the mid to late '90s I believe) and I'm curious if some of the Frenchmen here can tell us how eliminating that cap has affected the economy. Are people simply working more hours? Has unemployment gone up since a business needing X number of hours a week needs less workers? And most importantly, was that limiting the ability to create start-ups?

yardie 14y ago
I work in France and I'm still trying to wrap my head around the 35-hour rule. I've only worked PMEs (<50 empl.) so I don't know how big companies manage, once you get over 50 different rules kick in. * General salaries are sort of trapped outside the big cities. You can work 35-hours but don't expect any pay raises. I think the avg salary is around 1500€/mo. I would say most people have built there lives around the 35-hour week and even though it's not an upper limit anymore I haven't noticed an uptick in working hours. * There are so many things wrong in the French economy you can't really site a single source. Sluggish economy, automation, globalisation, all play a part. Do remember that after 35 hours that extra time is voluntary, as Apple is finding out. A smart manager wouldn't build a work schedule around 40 hours knowing the workers can legally walk off at 35. * Startup culture was much harder in the past. Where would you live? No property owner would rent you a flat because you don't have a "real" job. Bankruptcy was devastating, that 040 code. And then you have the social charges. The government wanted you to pay your pension, insurance, and the other social charges, in advance. Imagine what it costs to create a startup? Now imagine having to pay an entire year of taxes before you can sign your first customer. And the other thing was bureaucracy, lots of it. The government tried to make inroads on the tax charges by allowing them to be delayed for 2 years. And a lot of companies failed at 2 years for this reason.[1] [1] this was told to me by a political activist friend.
- smoyer 14y ago
  Thanks for the information ... After working 60-80 hour weeks on the start-ups I've done, I just couldn't imagine how it would have been possible with the old laws.
  - yardie 14y ago
    You could, but that is a very big brass ring to put in front of your employees. If you are working that many hours there better be a good reason, like a big payday. Startups are different than PMEs because the only way you would even think about working 60+ hours is if you have some equity in the success of the company. There are 2 ways the 35 hour week works: 1) You are paid for 35 hours/wk and work as much as you want all year long. December arrives and you go full RTT. You basically take a vacation while the company pays you the balance of those over 35 hour weeks. I've been in a few places where half the office is gone for the entire month of December, and sometimes November. If you don't use all your RTT by 31/12 you've basically worked for free. 2) Overtime. In my case my CDI (employee contract) is for 35 hours + 4 overtime hours that I've agreed to. Say the company only wants me to work 35hours/wk one month, too bad pay me 35+4. And if I go over 39 hours? RTT. Depending on the workplace, this can either get collegial or hostile very quickly. Also, when it's 7-8 hours of work the french really do work those hours. This is in contrast to my American observation of working 6-7 and goofing off for 2-3. But then you're always having to stay late. This pacing requires proper project management, something that was really lacking in most of my american bosses (Americans tend to inherit the manager job, to go cadre in France you actually have to take courses on managing people).
    - loup-vaillant 14y ago
      And then there's the typical programmer under the SYNTEC union convention, who is paid for 37.5 hours/wk, with only 10 days off for RTT per year. But in reality, we work the full 39/40 hours, because we're paid by the day, and there's much work do be done anyway. So, we're averaging 35 hours on paper, but more like 37.5 in reality. I guess that's just something to keep in mind while negotiating the salary.
conradfr 14y ago
35 hours-week was set up during a time of (worldwide) growth and massive improvement of the unemployment rate. Discussing real effects of that law is doomed to an endless debate and heated arguments :) Some facts : - French are some of the most productive people in the world. - Implementation of the law differs from company to company (35 hours, or additional day-off, or paid overtime). - It's not uncommon for people to work longer unpaid hours. - Salaries have stagnated (well, except for upper management and CEOs), which you can pin partly on that law. - Unemployment is currently at an all time high, but it affects most of Europe.
gadders 14y ago
Every time I start a new contract or role in the UK, I need to sign a form waiving my rights to the 35 hour limit.

by smoyer 14y ago

yardie 14y ago

I work in France and I'm still trying to wrap my head around the 35-hour rule. I've only worked PMEs (<50 empl.) so I don't know how big companies manage, once you get over 50 different rules kick in. * General salaries are sort of trapped outside the big cities. You can work 35-hours but don't expect any pay raises. I think the avg salary is around 1500€/mo. I would say most people have built there lives around the 35-hour week and even though it's not an upper limit anymore I haven't noticed an uptick in working hours. * There are so many things wrong in the French economy you can't really site a single source. Sluggish economy, automation, globalisation, all play a part. Do remember that after 35 hours that extra time is voluntary, as Apple is finding out. A smart manager wouldn't build a work schedule around 40 hours knowing the workers can legally walk off at 35. * Startup culture was much harder in the past. Where would you live? No property owner would rent you a flat because you don't have a "real" job. Bankruptcy was devastating, that 040 code. And then you have the social charges. The government wanted you to pay your pension, insurance, and the other social charges, in advance. Imagine what it costs to create a startup? Now imagine having to pay an entire year of taxes before you can sign your first customer. And the other thing was bureaucracy, lots of it. The government tried to make inroads on the tax charges by allowing them to be delayed for 2 years. And a lot of companies failed at 2 years for this reason.[1] [1] this was told to me by a political activist friend.

smoyer 14y ago
Thanks for the information ... After working 60-80 hour weeks on the start-ups I've done, I just couldn't imagine how it would have been possible with the old laws.
- yardie 14y ago
  You could, but that is a very big brass ring to put in front of your employees. If you are working that many hours there better be a good reason, like a big payday. Startups are different than PMEs because the only way you would even think about working 60+ hours is if you have some equity in the success of the company. There are 2 ways the 35 hour week works: 1) You are paid for 35 hours/wk and work as much as you want all year long. December arrives and you go full RTT. You basically take a vacation while the company pays you the balance of those over 35 hour weeks. I've been in a few places where half the office is gone for the entire month of December, and sometimes November. If you don't use all your RTT by 31/12 you've basically worked for free. 2) Overtime. In my case my CDI (employee contract) is for 35 hours + 4 overtime hours that I've agreed to. Say the company only wants me to work 35hours/wk one month, too bad pay me 35+4. And if I go over 39 hours? RTT. Depending on the workplace, this can either get collegial or hostile very quickly. Also, when it's 7-8 hours of work the french really do work those hours. This is in contrast to my American observation of working 6-7 and goofing off for 2-3. But then you're always having to stay late. This pacing requires proper project management, something that was really lacking in most of my american bosses (Americans tend to inherit the manager job, to go cadre in France you actually have to take courses on managing people).
  - loup-vaillant 14y ago
    And then there's the typical programmer under the SYNTEC union convention, who is paid for 37.5 hours/wk, with only 10 days off for RTT per year. But in reality, we work the full 39/40 hours, because we're paid by the day, and there's much work do be done anyway. So, we're averaging 35 hours on paper, but more like 37.5 in reality. I guess that's just something to keep in mind while negotiating the salary.

conradfr 14y ago

35 hours-week was set up during a time of (worldwide) growth and massive improvement of the unemployment rate. Discussing real effects of that law is doomed to an endless debate and heated arguments :) Some facts : - French are some of the most productive people in the world. - Implementation of the law differs from company to company (35 hours, or additional day-off, or paid overtime). - It's not uncommon for people to work longer unpaid hours. - Salaries have stagnated (well, except for upper management and CEOs), which you can pin partly on that law. - Unemployment is currently at an all time high, but it affects most of Europe.

gadders 14y ago

Every time I start a new contract or role in the UK, I need to sign a form waiving my rights to the 35 hour limit.