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75% tax rate. He is a sociallist big time. He hates free market economy. Now confronting public outrage he puts some lipstick on a pig and it still doesn't look

75% tax rate. He is a sociallist big time. He hates free market economy. Now confronting public outrage he puts some lipstick on a pig and it still doesn't look good as he doesn't get the markets. 75% tax rate, who is he kidding? Who wants to work for free for years on their startup and sacrifice their savings, their social life, sometimes their family, just to be hit by 75% tax at the end of the journey? No thank you Hollande, but no thank you.

tekahs 14y ago
Not feeding the troll, but the average tax for a company is ~36%. 75% is the income tax when you are very rich. (And it's still a project). now, the income tax is 50% for the rich people.
- ekianjo 14y ago
  Well that's still far high enough even at 36%. There are several places more business-friendly around the world.
  - claudius 14y ago
    > There are several places more business-friendly around the world. Sure. There are also several places with much worse infrastructure around the world. If you don’t want to pay taxes, go to Somalia.
    - speeq 14y ago
      What about places like UAE? The Dubai "Internet City"- Free Trade Zone offers absence of corporate and personal income taxes or customs duties, as well as free repatriation of capital and profit in any currency. I'd say, if you don't want to pay taxes, go to Dubai.
      - claudius 14y ago
        Wasn’t there a thread here recently how it took them until 2010 to build a second sewage plant and still have to haul their shit away in trucks?
        return0 14y ago
        FYI, after what happened in Cyprus (and may be repeated in malta), dozens of online businesses which were based there are moving to Dubai. Not sure how the schizoid behavior of Europeans authorities with regards to business is helping at all.
        claudius 14y ago
        Because, err, Dubai is such an extremely democratic country where it is absolutely guaranteed that the government will jump in if you fail and where there is a large social security net in case your company goes bankrupt? Really, Cyprus and Malta are not that different from Dubai, and neither is their business model. The difference is that Cyprus and Malta are part of a larger entity that guarantees certain things, such as human rights[0], reimbursement of up to 100k € if the bank goes bankrupt[1] and support for temporarily failing countries[2]. Oh, and the risk of Iran attacking Cyprus or Malta is surprisingly low as well. [0] extradition to the US from the UK being one of the interesting things here. [1] cf. the EU’s opposition to the Cypriot government’s original idea to just take n% from everybody. [2] extra loans to Ireland, cheap money to Italy etc.pp.
        return0 14y ago
        Hey i'm not claiming it's a better place to live in. The point is, businesses are mobile nowadays and europe is doing everything it can to scare them away.
        claudius 14y ago
        That certainly depends on the business, and given sufficient political interest, it is rather easy, especially for an economic area as large as Europe, to shut out external businesses exploiting tax loopholes or subsidies abroad.
    - return0 14y ago
      Or to Ireland, Estonia, Malta etc.
- VeejayRampay 14y ago
  Also, the 75% is a marginal bracket. Only the money over the 1 million bar or whatever it is right now gets taxed that much. All the money you make up to 1 million faces lower percentages.
stygianguest 14y ago
Of course that only applies to the salary over one million. As people earning that much usually have plenty of options to get their money through different channels, this is purely political posturing. They didn't even significantly increase tax revenue. I agree that it is ridiculous but, in a similar way, it is ridiculous to claim that one rate makes France unfriendly for business.
- lke 14y ago
  Are marginal tax rates rare ? It alway seems like people don't understand how they work. But i don't see how you could do without them, there would be a strong incentive not to change bracket.
- LekkoscPiwa 14y ago
  > Of course that only applies to the salary over one million. Of course! So have a look at me: worked 8 years in IT and saved about 150,000 USD in that time period. I paid taxes on this, mind you. To save this amount I had to live on much lower standard of living that my peers. My wife and my kid too. I quit the job, I'm trying to run a startup. I have a child, a wife and expenses related to that. Instead of getting regular income as everybody else, I spend my savings (accumulated capital) to try create something of value for the public. I take risks. My family does too. We live on 40000 dollars a year or less. Because I'm putting everything into this business. 2 years and 80000 so far plus income I lost by not working in 8-5 job in these 2 years. Let's say it works out. I sell the business after 3 years for 1,000,000 dollars. You are telling me that it is fine to take 750,000 from me and from my family? For all the risks I took? For all the hard work? For years of living below standard my family could have afforded but decided to take risk and save, and invest? So, you would like to see me with just 1/4 of this? And give 3/4 to people who didn't take any risks, didn't save, are living comfortably (better than me!) I don't think you understand. France is history.
  - eru 14y ago
    > I sell the business after 3 years for 1,000,000 dollars. [...] I don't know about French taxation, but I don't think the sale of the business would be taxed as a million dollars of income.
conradfr 14y ago
There is no 75% tax rate.
return0 14y ago
I like to say that, in Europe, we believe in a peculiar kind of social mobility. Social mobility ends in middle class. The old aristocracy has secured its benefits in special untouchable jurisdictions (Switzerland, luxembourg, lichnestein or dozens of capital havens), and is actively preventing anyone else from entering the club. What's worse, they don't even invest, preferring to spend on luxuries.
wisty 14y ago
75% marginal on income over 1 million. So if you make 2 million, you probably only make, like 750,000 for yourself (which isn't too bad) - if your tax accountant is useless. And if you fail, you have a safety net.
- fab13n 14y ago
  Only on _salaries_ of over a million. Except for soccer superstars, nobody makes more than a million _in salary_. He promised it for populist reasons, but never wanted to do it; so he does it in such a way that it affects virtually nobody. It has a nasty effect, though: it reinforces the idea that wanting to become rich is somewhat antisocial in France, and ought to be punished. A 75% tax is what you levy on vice: oil, tobacco, alcohol or lottery. This is insulting and discouraging to entrepreneurs, many of whom crave social recognition at least as much as wealth.
qwerta 14y ago
75% tax rate is very common in Europe even for workers with average salary. There are many hidden taxes such as 'social security insurance payed by employer'.
- LekkoscPiwa 14y ago
  or VAT (sales tax) in whereabouts of 20%.
- zeugma 14y ago
  I doubt that it does in any EU country. In France it actually does not exceed 50% including VAT. (http://www.revolution-fiscale.fr/le-systeme-actuel/des-impots-progressifs-/11-un-systeme-fiscal-faiblement-progressifou-franchement-regressif- http://www.revolution-fiscale.fr/le-systeme-actuel/des-impot...)
- vacri 14y ago
  A load of tosh. "Income tax rates in France" in google gives you them with ease. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_France#Taxes_on_incomes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_France#Taxes_on_inc... In order to hit 40% income tax, you have to be a single on 70k or a nuclear family on 210k. Even if they have 20% VAT equivalent, that only works out to another 10% of what's left, leaving 50% as disposable income. And that's the highest tax bracket, and given that the average wage in France is supposedly ~30k euro, that's less than half the highest bracket cutoff.
  - ovi256 14y ago
    >There are many hidden taxes such as 'social security insurance payed by employer'. He's taking about hidden taxes such as this one, which is paid by the employer, so many French people I've talked to about it seem to think it's somehow magically not money out of their pocket.
    - varjag 14y ago
      You can see those as compulsory 401(k), health and disability insurance.
byroot 14y ago
If a 75% tax rate is being socialist big time, were the US communist back in the 50' ? Because they had tax rates up to 91% at the time. It's under 50% only since Reagan. One source among others: http://www.beggarscanbechoosers.com/2011/09/america-prospered-in-1950s-with-91.html http://www.beggarscanbechoosers.com/2011/09/america-prospere...

tekahs 14y ago

Not feeding the troll, but the average tax for a company is ~36%. 75% is the income tax when you are very rich. (And it's still a project). now, the income tax is 50% for the rich people.

ekianjo 14y ago
Well that's still far high enough even at 36%. There are several places more business-friendly around the world.
- claudius 14y ago
  > There are several places more business-friendly around the world. Sure. There are also several places with much worse infrastructure around the world. If you don’t want to pay taxes, go to Somalia.
  - speeq 14y ago
    What about places like UAE? The Dubai "Internet City"- Free Trade Zone offers absence of corporate and personal income taxes or customs duties, as well as free repatriation of capital and profit in any currency. I'd say, if you don't want to pay taxes, go to Dubai.
    - claudius 14y ago
      Wasn’t there a thread here recently how it took them until 2010 to build a second sewage plant and still have to haul their shit away in trucks?
      - return0 14y ago
        FYI, after what happened in Cyprus (and may be repeated in malta), dozens of online businesses which were based there are moving to Dubai. Not sure how the schizoid behavior of Europeans authorities with regards to business is helping at all.
        claudius 14y ago
        Because, err, Dubai is such an extremely democratic country where it is absolutely guaranteed that the government will jump in if you fail and where there is a large social security net in case your company goes bankrupt? Really, Cyprus and Malta are not that different from Dubai, and neither is their business model. The difference is that Cyprus and Malta are part of a larger entity that guarantees certain things, such as human rights[0], reimbursement of up to 100k € if the bank goes bankrupt[1] and support for temporarily failing countries[2]. Oh, and the risk of Iran attacking Cyprus or Malta is surprisingly low as well. [0] extradition to the US from the UK being one of the interesting things here. [1] cf. the EU’s opposition to the Cypriot government’s original idea to just take n% from everybody. [2] extra loans to Ireland, cheap money to Italy etc.pp.
        return0 14y ago
        Hey i'm not claiming it's a better place to live in. The point is, businesses are mobile nowadays and europe is doing everything it can to scare them away.
        claudius 14y ago
        That certainly depends on the business, and given sufficient political interest, it is rather easy, especially for an economic area as large as Europe, to shut out external businesses exploiting tax loopholes or subsidies abroad.
  - return0 14y ago
    Or to Ireland, Estonia, Malta etc.
VeejayRampay 14y ago
Also, the 75% is a marginal bracket. Only the money over the 1 million bar or whatever it is right now gets taxed that much. All the money you make up to 1 million faces lower percentages.

stygianguest 14y ago

Of course that only applies to the salary over one million. As people earning that much usually have plenty of options to get their money through different channels, this is purely political posturing. They didn't even significantly increase tax revenue. I agree that it is ridiculous but, in a similar way, it is ridiculous to claim that one rate makes France unfriendly for business.

lke 14y ago
Are marginal tax rates rare ? It alway seems like people don't understand how they work. But i don't see how you could do without them, there would be a strong incentive not to change bracket.
LekkoscPiwa 14y ago
> Of course that only applies to the salary over one million. Of course! So have a look at me: worked 8 years in IT and saved about 150,000 USD in that time period. I paid taxes on this, mind you. To save this amount I had to live on much lower standard of living that my peers. My wife and my kid too. I quit the job, I'm trying to run a startup. I have a child, a wife and expenses related to that. Instead of getting regular income as everybody else, I spend my savings (accumulated capital) to try create something of value for the public. I take risks. My family does too. We live on 40000 dollars a year or less. Because I'm putting everything into this business. 2 years and 80000 so far plus income I lost by not working in 8-5 job in these 2 years. Let's say it works out. I sell the business after 3 years for 1,000,000 dollars. You are telling me that it is fine to take 750,000 from me and from my family? For all the risks I took? For all the hard work? For years of living below standard my family could have afforded but decided to take risk and save, and invest? So, you would like to see me with just 1/4 of this? And give 3/4 to people who didn't take any risks, didn't save, are living comfortably (better than me!) I don't think you understand. France is history.
- eru 14y ago
  > I sell the business after 3 years for 1,000,000 dollars. [...] I don't know about French taxation, but I don't think the sale of the business would be taxed as a million dollars of income.

conradfr 14y ago

There is no 75% tax rate.

return0 14y ago

I like to say that, in Europe, we believe in a peculiar kind of social mobility. Social mobility ends in middle class. The old aristocracy has secured its benefits in special untouchable jurisdictions (Switzerland, luxembourg, lichnestein or dozens of capital havens), and is actively preventing anyone else from entering the club. What's worse, they don't even invest, preferring to spend on luxuries.

wisty 14y ago

75% marginal on income over 1 million. So if you make 2 million, you probably only make, like 750,000 for yourself (which isn't too bad) - if your tax accountant is useless. And if you fail, you have a safety net.

fab13n 14y ago
Only on _salaries_ of over a million. Except for soccer superstars, nobody makes more than a million _in salary_. He promised it for populist reasons, but never wanted to do it; so he does it in such a way that it affects virtually nobody. It has a nasty effect, though: it reinforces the idea that wanting to become rich is somewhat antisocial in France, and ought to be punished. A 75% tax is what you levy on vice: oil, tobacco, alcohol or lottery. This is insulting and discouraging to entrepreneurs, many of whom crave social recognition at least as much as wealth.

qwerta 14y ago

75% tax rate is very common in Europe even for workers with average salary. There are many hidden taxes such as 'social security insurance payed by employer'.

LekkoscPiwa 14y ago
or VAT (sales tax) in whereabouts of 20%.
zeugma 14y ago
I doubt that it does in any EU country. In France it actually does not exceed 50% including VAT. (http://www.revolution-fiscale.fr/le-systeme-actuel/des-impots-progressifs-/11-un-systeme-fiscal-faiblement-progressifou-franchement-regressif- http://www.revolution-fiscale.fr/le-systeme-actuel/des-impot...)
vacri 14y ago
A load of tosh. "Income tax rates in France" in google gives you them with ease. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_France#Taxes_on_incomes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_France#Taxes_on_inc... In order to hit 40% income tax, you have to be a single on 70k or a nuclear family on 210k. Even if they have 20% VAT equivalent, that only works out to another 10% of what's left, leaving 50% as disposable income. And that's the highest tax bracket, and given that the average wage in France is supposedly ~30k euro, that's less than half the highest bracket cutoff.
- ovi256 14y ago
  >There are many hidden taxes such as 'social security insurance payed by employer'. He's taking about hidden taxes such as this one, which is paid by the employer, so many French people I've talked to about it seem to think it's somehow magically not money out of their pocket.
  - varjag 14y ago
    You can see those as compulsory 401(k), health and disability insurance.

byroot 14y ago

If a 75% tax rate is being socialist big time, were the US communist back in the 50' ? Because they had tax rates up to 91% at the time. It's under 50% only since Reagan. One source among others: http://www.beggarscanbechoosers.com/2011/09/america-prospered-in-1950s-with-91.html http://www.beggarscanbechoosers.com/2011/09/america-prospere...