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This whole thread is making me very pleased I didn't buy a Macbook Pro. It isn't the fact that stuff goes wrong that bugs me, it is the fact that seemingly bot

This whole thread is making me very pleased I didn't buy a Macbook Pro. It isn't the fact that stuff goes wrong that bugs me, it is the fact that seemingly both the problems and solutions are via "magic." Even people who claim to be very UNIX knowledgable have no idea what is going wrong... When Apple's stuff works it "just works." When Apple's stuff stops working then you're SOL.

lucian1900 14y ago
Their sandboxing method is deeply flawed and it locks up core services.
saidajigumi 14y ago
In my experience, this kind of thing is no different than any other system I've used over the years. Windows, Linux, OS X -- all of them end up with odd problems that require a bit of digging around the web to sort out. Singling out OS X as "then you're SOL" seems like FUD to me.
- obviouslygreen 14y ago
  When you have a problem in Linux, it may require some searching, but the solution usually makes sense at some level. Unless you're doing something very strange or bleeding edge, it's more likely that what you find won't be totally incomprehensible or inexplicable. As for Windows... just restart it, you'll be fine. ;)
  - nwh 14y ago
    Usually true, but Linux hardware problems are another matter. If its FireWire based you just type random things from forum posts until something happens.
    - diggan 14y ago
      You really shouldn't write random things from internet in your terminal. Maybe the hardware problems is for the stereotypical consumer isn't interested in Linux if you compare to Windows and Mac OSX. Different story on server-hardware/software though.
  - jfb 14y ago
    It only makes sense because you understand Linux. Windows is a black book to me, but I've worked with Windows hackers who had the same intuitive understanding of how their system worked as the neckebeardiest BSD hacker has of theirs. I don't find this latest OS X buglet to be difficult to understand, but then, I've been using OS X for ages.
    - ninjac0der 14y ago
      I makes sense because there is no black box for an open source OS. #edit: also, how exactly does one get as familiar with a closed source OS as an open source one?
      - kibibu 14y ago
        Are you suggesting Linux problems are easier to fix because you can read the source code to the kernel? I'm sure on some level that's true, as you have the option to learn how, say, your WiFi drivers operate to decipher why your signal drops to three bars every 20 minutes. However, in Windows, I generally know where to find configuration info: In one of three registry hives, which follow a pretty easy to parse tree structure. In Linux, I'm totally lost finding where to configure different pieces of software. Each distro puts their various configs in different spots. Some in /etc/local/whatever, /etc/whatever/, /usr/share/local/whatever.d/, /opt/whatever/, /etc/opt/whatever.conf/, /usr/local/share/whatever.d/ and so on. Some times there are duplicates, which one is the correct one? How do I know? And on top of this, every config file uses different formats.
        Xcelerate 14y ago
        Haha, your last paragraph is so incredibly true. I can't stand the way Linux organizes information.
      - smith7018 14y ago
        Wat? OSX is an open source OS (at the kernel level and more) but its UI isn't. Also, are you actually implying that you would've downloaded the Gentoo source, sifted through the source until you found the file with the bug, then debugged the compiled binary to see what exactly is happening? Yeah, I totally download all of Android's source when my app crashes.
  - coldtea 14y ago
    >When you have a problem in Linux, it may require some searching, but the solution usually makes sense at some level. Well, since you used "usually" and "some level", the same exact thing holds for OS X. If THIS particular one doesn't make sense, it's because nobody bothered explaining the mechanism yet -- which should be trivial if investigated. Isn't it obvious that "safe mode" boot foregoes running some system stuff? That probably lets some script the chance to fix something (bad permissions?) that it couldn't fix when the full system, sandboxing, mdworker etc were running.
  - kalleboo 14y ago
    Whenever I have a problem with Linux, it usually ends like this http://xkcd.com/979/ http://xkcd.com/979/
super_mario 14y ago
Safe boot clears caches (all kinds of user/system caches) and among them sandbox config files. Mystery solved.
wisty 14y ago
Having them switch the location of /usr/lib (breaking numerous compiler tools) wasn't enough?
coldtea 14y ago
>This whole thread is making me very pleased I didn't buy a Macbook Pro. It isn't the fact that stuff goes wrong that bugs me, it is the fact that seemingly both the problems and solutions are via "magic." Even people who claim to be very UNIX knowledgable have no idea what is going wrong... Sounds like rationalizing the non-purchase to me. Nothing voodoo about how OS X works. Just that nobody bothered to investigate this problem further (and that OS X sandboxing a custom component, and a recent one at that, not some standard UNIX/POSIX functionality, so not everybody is familiar with it). My guess is that the safe-boot thing lets some maintenance scripts run uninhibited by restrictions set in other run levels, which fixes the md issue. That said, md is just a normal unix process. If you cared enough to find this out, you can see what's going one with fs_usage, you have Dtrace available and other niceties etc. In any case, nothing unlike the numerous problems people have with the intricacies of selinux.
Wilya 14y ago
To be fair, if you have a linux problem and Google leads you to Ubuntu forums, the solutions you will find there will likely be ugly strings of misunderstood magic too. It's just a general fact that, given enough time and some trial and error, one can make problems go away even without understanding the root cause. I don't think it varies so much from one OS to another.

lucian1900 14y ago

Their sandboxing method is deeply flawed and it locks up core services.

saidajigumi 14y ago

In my experience, this kind of thing is no different than any other system I've used over the years. Windows, Linux, OS X -- all of them end up with odd problems that require a bit of digging around the web to sort out. Singling out OS X as "then you're SOL" seems like FUD to me.

obviouslygreen 14y ago
When you have a problem in Linux, it may require some searching, but the solution usually makes sense at some level. Unless you're doing something very strange or bleeding edge, it's more likely that what you find won't be totally incomprehensible or inexplicable. As for Windows... just restart it, you'll be fine. ;)
- nwh 14y ago
  Usually true, but Linux hardware problems are another matter. If its FireWire based you just type random things from forum posts until something happens.
  - diggan 14y ago
    You really shouldn't write random things from internet in your terminal. Maybe the hardware problems is for the stereotypical consumer isn't interested in Linux if you compare to Windows and Mac OSX. Different story on server-hardware/software though.
- jfb 14y ago
  It only makes sense because you understand Linux. Windows is a black book to me, but I've worked with Windows hackers who had the same intuitive understanding of how their system worked as the neckebeardiest BSD hacker has of theirs. I don't find this latest OS X buglet to be difficult to understand, but then, I've been using OS X for ages.
  - ninjac0der 14y ago
    I makes sense because there is no black box for an open source OS. #edit: also, how exactly does one get as familiar with a closed source OS as an open source one?
    - kibibu 14y ago
      Are you suggesting Linux problems are easier to fix because you can read the source code to the kernel? I'm sure on some level that's true, as you have the option to learn how, say, your WiFi drivers operate to decipher why your signal drops to three bars every 20 minutes. However, in Windows, I generally know where to find configuration info: In one of three registry hives, which follow a pretty easy to parse tree structure. In Linux, I'm totally lost finding where to configure different pieces of software. Each distro puts their various configs in different spots. Some in /etc/local/whatever, /etc/whatever/, /usr/share/local/whatever.d/, /opt/whatever/, /etc/opt/whatever.conf/, /usr/local/share/whatever.d/ and so on. Some times there are duplicates, which one is the correct one? How do I know? And on top of this, every config file uses different formats.
      - Xcelerate 14y ago
        Haha, your last paragraph is so incredibly true. I can't stand the way Linux organizes information.
    - smith7018 14y ago
      Wat? OSX is an open source OS (at the kernel level and more) but its UI isn't. Also, are you actually implying that you would've downloaded the Gentoo source, sifted through the source until you found the file with the bug, then debugged the compiled binary to see what exactly is happening? Yeah, I totally download all of Android's source when my app crashes.
- coldtea 14y ago
  >When you have a problem in Linux, it may require some searching, but the solution usually makes sense at some level. Well, since you used "usually" and "some level", the same exact thing holds for OS X. If THIS particular one doesn't make sense, it's because nobody bothered explaining the mechanism yet -- which should be trivial if investigated. Isn't it obvious that "safe mode" boot foregoes running some system stuff? That probably lets some script the chance to fix something (bad permissions?) that it couldn't fix when the full system, sandboxing, mdworker etc were running.
- kalleboo 14y ago
  Whenever I have a problem with Linux, it usually ends like this http://xkcd.com/979/ http://xkcd.com/979/

super_mario 14y ago

Safe boot clears caches (all kinds of user/system caches) and among them sandbox config files. Mystery solved.

wisty 14y ago

Having them switch the location of /usr/lib (breaking numerous compiler tools) wasn't enough?

coldtea 14y ago

>This whole thread is making me very pleased I didn't buy a Macbook Pro. It isn't the fact that stuff goes wrong that bugs me, it is the fact that seemingly both the problems and solutions are via "magic." Even people who claim to be very UNIX knowledgable have no idea what is going wrong... Sounds like rationalizing the non-purchase to me. Nothing voodoo about how OS X works. Just that nobody bothered to investigate this problem further (and that OS X sandboxing a custom component, and a recent one at that, not some standard UNIX/POSIX functionality, so not everybody is familiar with it). My guess is that the safe-boot thing lets some maintenance scripts run uninhibited by restrictions set in other run levels, which fixes the md issue. That said, md is just a normal unix process. If you cared enough to find this out, you can see what's going one with fs_usage, you have Dtrace available and other niceties etc. In any case, nothing unlike the numerous problems people have with the intricacies of selinux.

Wilya 14y ago

To be fair, if you have a linux problem and Google leads you to Ubuntu forums, the solutions you will find there will likely be ugly strings of misunderstood magic too. It's just a general fact that, given enough time and some trial and error, one can make problems go away even without understanding the root cause. I don't think it varies so much from one OS to another.