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This article makes a big mistake in conflating software development with STEM in general. It shows a stock photo of a guy looking through a microsope (btw why i

by kyllo 14y ago

This article makes a big mistake in conflating software development with STEM in general. It shows a stock photo of a guy looking through a microsope (btw why is he looking through the lens if the microscope is plugged into a monitor? Seems redundant...), when the focus of the article is Microsoft, Google, and Facebook wanting to raise the H1-B visa cap so they can bring in more cheap coders from India. Is there a shortage of STEM graduates in the U.S.? Absolutely not. We graduate far more STEM students (especially in research-oriented sciences like biology, chemistry, physics) than we have jobs for. These research jobs are mostly funded by government grants, and the government is cutting back due to unrelated political issues with the budget, of which the root cause is mostly failures in the finance sector. Is there a shortage of programmers in the U.S.? Perhaps. There is massive, and growing, demand in all sectors for software developers, and our universities aren't graduating them faster than demand growth, and as a result software dev salaries are rising (or at least not falling). But programming is not STEM, and these jobs are not scientific research jobs. They are mostly jobs building commercial software products or automating business processes. These companies have figured out that they can squeeze a little more profit out of their business model by bringing in Indians who will write code for less money and can't job-hop because they're indentured by their visa status. So when they whine about a "talent shortage," they really just mean "American programmers are too expensive" because the relatively low supply/demand ratio means they still have to actually pay them a livable FTE salary and benefits--unlike most other job categories where they can and do hire commodity temp labor. (There are several entire companies dedicated to temp/contract staffing for administrative and QA positions at Microsoft.) These companies will pay lip service to the concept of improving the US education system to crank out more highly-skilled STEM graduates, make our country more competitive, etc. But really, it's just whining about microeconomic factors that hinder their constant efforts to trim their HR budgets. They just want cheaper coders, period.

freyr 14y ago
> There is massive, and growing, demand in all sectors for software developers, and our universities aren't graduating them faster than demand growth, and as a result software dev salaries are rising (or at least not falling). This is a direct contradiction to what's claimed in the article, namely that dev salaries are not rising to the extent that would be expected if there were a true shortage.
- kyllo 14y ago
  Yeah, I don't have data on hand to support this, but I also doubt that software dev salaries are really rising fast enough to indicate an actual shortage, or at least a new or growing shortage. I think the problem employers see is not that software dev salaries are rising, just that they are high compared to other job descriptions, and have been for years. Starting salaries for an entry-level software developer (with a bachelor's in CS) are roughly double the starting salaries for non-programmer entry-level positions that require a bachelor's degree--and employers don't like that.
  - freyr 14y ago
    True. It would be interesting if they could break out salary growth for top developers vs. average developers. The common sentiment here seems to be that there's a shortage of highly talented developers. If this is true, then their salaries may in fact be rising at a higher pace. "Starting salaries for an entry-level software developer (with a bachelor's in CS) are roughly double the starting salaries for non-programmer entry-level positions that require a bachelor's degree--and employers don't like that." That's also true, but it's also interesting to consider from the perspective of a talented student considering CS. If he believes everything he reads, (a) he'll start with a decent salary but probably hit a glass ceiling relatively quickly (a much lower ceiling than, say, a doctor or management consultant or trader), (b) his skill set is in constant danger of becoming outdated due to the unusually high pace of skill turnover, at which point he'll be replaced by an H-1B holder or new CS grad, (c) he'll be expected to move to Silicon Valley (or NYC, apparently) where the cost of living will negate his higher salary. If any of these things actually come to pass, the relatively high starting salary he made the first few years out of school won't be much consolation.
- drbacon 14y ago
  That's a good point. I have difficulty reconciling two opposing feelings: I feel like the US is not producing enough developers/engineers, and I feel like the salaries do not reflect the shortage. I have been working as a developer (and also an analyst) in the DC area for 6 years. The talent pool around here is very shallow. The companies for which I have worked are constantly looking to hire programmers. It is very difficult to find qualified applicants. Roughly half of developers at my current company are on H1-B visas. I think H1-B is both a form of indentured servitude and somewhat necessary (at least in the DC area). I wish there were a better way to employ immigrants, so that they could more easily job-hop or go out on their own. OTOH, I think the salaries have not reflected this shortage. Maybe I am just a poor negotiator. Perhaps Boston, Austin and other hot beds are different (i.e. deeper talent pools, more opportunistic employers). But I see my employers struggle to find developers, and poor salaries blamed on the economy.
marshray 14y ago
> why is he looking through the lens if the microscope is plugged into a monitor? Must be one of those newfangled stereographic retina-resolution microscopes.
- tzs 14y ago
  It appears to be a binocular microscope, but not a stereo microscope. A stereo microscope has two separate optical paths to the specimen, one for each eye. A non-stereo binocular microscope has one optical path from the specimen to the eyepiece assembly, and then uses a prism to split that so that it can be sent two eyepieces. This increases comfort and reduces eyestrain compared to a single eyepiece microscope.
eikenberry 14y ago
> But programming is not STEM, and these jobs are not scientific research jobs. STEM stands for 'Science Technology Engineering Mathematics'. Programming is part of the middle 'TE' bit plus a little of the 'M'.
- kyllo 14y ago
  That's a problem with the definition of "STEM." It's a categorical grouping that doesn't reflect any real relationship. Building web applications is not even remotely related to writing research papers about microbes or subatomic particles. It's a completely different job market. When people say "there is a shortage of STEM graduates" they usually just mean CS graduates. But the journalists writing this are too non-technical to know the difference, so they try to refute this by pointing to statistics that show the US has plenty of STEM graduates. Too bad they're mostly biologists and not programmers!
polyfractal 14y ago
> btw why is he looking through the lens if the microscope is plugged into a monitor? Seems redundant... Actually, this is pretty common, especially if you are doing fluorescence microscopy (complete derail from your main point, sorry): - The optics leading to the eye-piece is usually superior to the quality of the camera. You'll have a cleaner, crisper picture looking through the eyepiece - Most cameras tend to have a refresh rate which is laggy. - Eyepiece optics tend to have a wider field of view, making it a lot easier to find interesting areas to focus on - Especially for fluorescence, using the eyepiece helps block out background light, letting you focus on faint details. Some details are just really hard to make out on the computer screen, without fiddling with contrast/brightness settings - You may have the computer settings at a particular level where "browsing" the field is impossible. E.g. your "picture taking mode" is set to long exposures, or very quick exposures with high contrast. These settings make it difficult to actually use the computer for anything except taking the picture. - You are taking pictures in fluorescence, but selecting/focusing with bright-field.
- jamesjporter 14y ago
  I've done this sort of microscopy and can verify everything polyfractal says. EDIT: sadly, I can also verify that there are no jobs in science :(
Red_Curry 14y ago
It's obvious companies want to increase H1-B for hiring top talent at lower salaries. An amazing programmer in India or China probably makes 1/10th of what he would make in America, but they don't know this. They'll be recruited to America on H1-B but they won't contend their salary, they'll be happy making 2x or 3x their previous salary, even if it's 45k/year. Their ability to negotiate salary will be further hindered by a strong possibility of poor-English skills, therefore inability to communicate well.
etler 14y ago
I feel like the key difference between STEM and software jobs is that STEM jobs are typically niche jobs, but software applies to all fields. Every company can benefit from a good software engineer so there's huge demand for it and I don't see it ending any time soon.

by kyllo 14y ago

freyr 14y ago

> There is massive, and growing, demand in all sectors for software developers, and our universities aren't graduating them faster than demand growth, and as a result software dev salaries are rising (or at least not falling). This is a direct contradiction to what's claimed in the article, namely that dev salaries are not rising to the extent that would be expected if there were a true shortage.

kyllo 14y ago
Yeah, I don't have data on hand to support this, but I also doubt that software dev salaries are really rising fast enough to indicate an actual shortage, or at least a new or growing shortage. I think the problem employers see is not that software dev salaries are rising, just that they are high compared to other job descriptions, and have been for years. Starting salaries for an entry-level software developer (with a bachelor's in CS) are roughly double the starting salaries for non-programmer entry-level positions that require a bachelor's degree--and employers don't like that.
- freyr 14y ago
  True. It would be interesting if they could break out salary growth for top developers vs. average developers. The common sentiment here seems to be that there's a shortage of highly talented developers. If this is true, then their salaries may in fact be rising at a higher pace. "Starting salaries for an entry-level software developer (with a bachelor's in CS) are roughly double the starting salaries for non-programmer entry-level positions that require a bachelor's degree--and employers don't like that." That's also true, but it's also interesting to consider from the perspective of a talented student considering CS. If he believes everything he reads, (a) he'll start with a decent salary but probably hit a glass ceiling relatively quickly (a much lower ceiling than, say, a doctor or management consultant or trader), (b) his skill set is in constant danger of becoming outdated due to the unusually high pace of skill turnover, at which point he'll be replaced by an H-1B holder or new CS grad, (c) he'll be expected to move to Silicon Valley (or NYC, apparently) where the cost of living will negate his higher salary. If any of these things actually come to pass, the relatively high starting salary he made the first few years out of school won't be much consolation.
drbacon 14y ago
That's a good point. I have difficulty reconciling two opposing feelings: I feel like the US is not producing enough developers/engineers, and I feel like the salaries do not reflect the shortage. I have been working as a developer (and also an analyst) in the DC area for 6 years. The talent pool around here is very shallow. The companies for which I have worked are constantly looking to hire programmers. It is very difficult to find qualified applicants. Roughly half of developers at my current company are on H1-B visas. I think H1-B is both a form of indentured servitude and somewhat necessary (at least in the DC area). I wish there were a better way to employ immigrants, so that they could more easily job-hop or go out on their own. OTOH, I think the salaries have not reflected this shortage. Maybe I am just a poor negotiator. Perhaps Boston, Austin and other hot beds are different (i.e. deeper talent pools, more opportunistic employers). But I see my employers struggle to find developers, and poor salaries blamed on the economy.

marshray 14y ago

> why is he looking through the lens if the microscope is plugged into a monitor? Must be one of those newfangled stereographic retina-resolution microscopes.

tzs 14y ago
It appears to be a binocular microscope, but not a stereo microscope. A stereo microscope has two separate optical paths to the specimen, one for each eye. A non-stereo binocular microscope has one optical path from the specimen to the eyepiece assembly, and then uses a prism to split that so that it can be sent two eyepieces. This increases comfort and reduces eyestrain compared to a single eyepiece microscope.

eikenberry 14y ago

> But programming is not STEM, and these jobs are not scientific research jobs. STEM stands for 'Science Technology Engineering Mathematics'. Programming is part of the middle 'TE' bit plus a little of the 'M'.

kyllo 14y ago
That's a problem with the definition of "STEM." It's a categorical grouping that doesn't reflect any real relationship. Building web applications is not even remotely related to writing research papers about microbes or subatomic particles. It's a completely different job market. When people say "there is a shortage of STEM graduates" they usually just mean CS graduates. But the journalists writing this are too non-technical to know the difference, so they try to refute this by pointing to statistics that show the US has plenty of STEM graduates. Too bad they're mostly biologists and not programmers!

polyfractal 14y ago

> btw why is he looking through the lens if the microscope is plugged into a monitor? Seems redundant... Actually, this is pretty common, especially if you are doing fluorescence microscopy (complete derail from your main point, sorry): - The optics leading to the eye-piece is usually superior to the quality of the camera. You'll have a cleaner, crisper picture looking through the eyepiece - Most cameras tend to have a refresh rate which is laggy. - Eyepiece optics tend to have a wider field of view, making it a lot easier to find interesting areas to focus on - Especially for fluorescence, using the eyepiece helps block out background light, letting you focus on faint details. Some details are just really hard to make out on the computer screen, without fiddling with contrast/brightness settings - You may have the computer settings at a particular level where "browsing" the field is impossible. E.g. your "picture taking mode" is set to long exposures, or very quick exposures with high contrast. These settings make it difficult to actually use the computer for anything except taking the picture. - You are taking pictures in fluorescence, but selecting/focusing with bright-field.

jamesjporter 14y ago
I've done this sort of microscopy and can verify everything polyfractal says. EDIT: sadly, I can also verify that there are no jobs in science :(

Red_Curry 14y ago

It's obvious companies want to increase H1-B for hiring top talent at lower salaries. An amazing programmer in India or China probably makes 1/10th of what he would make in America, but they don't know this. They'll be recruited to America on H1-B but they won't contend their salary, they'll be happy making 2x or 3x their previous salary, even if it's 45k/year. Their ability to negotiate salary will be further hindered by a strong possibility of poor-English skills, therefore inability to communicate well.

etler 14y ago

I feel like the key difference between STEM and software jobs is that STEM jobs are typically niche jobs, but software applies to all fields. Every company can benefit from a good software engineer so there's huge demand for it and I don't see it ending any time soon.