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Ok, excellent points there. Do you mind clarifying how you feel about Samsung phones in particular? They do have a semi-usable bootloader (cyanogenmod, clockwo

by sounds 14y ago

Ok, excellent points there. Do you mind clarifying how you feel about Samsung phones in particular? They do have a semi-usable bootloader (cyanogenmod, clockwork mod, etc. work pretty well) but getting the graphics, touchscreen, accelerometer, sound, camera (pictures/video) and any other drivers to work in cyanogenmod can be just as much work after that first initial success (the bootloader). Without good drivers, a bootloader is only half the solution, in my opinion. I'm picking on Samsung because their phones are very, very common. But HTC is no better at publishing drivers. In fact, only the Google Nexus line has published drivers so that the software stack can be replaced to a degree.

kalleboo 14y ago
Sony have also been very engaged with the open source community, with their own developers contributing on the XDA developers forums, participating in the AOSP[1], and they were the first outside Google to let anyone (not operator-locked) to unlock the bootloader with an official tool[2]. But everyone seems to ignore Sony phones for some reason. "Open friendly" does not seem to be a priority to customers, even ones who want to hack their phones. [1] https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/device-sony-c6603 https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/device-sony-c6603 [2] http://unlockbootloader.sonymobile.com http://unlockbootloader.sonymobile.com
- vy8vWJlco 14y ago
  I have had a very hard time trusting Sony since the removal of the OtherOS/Linux support on the PS3 (which was not their first hard-line opposition to owner control that came to my attention by then). Since then, I have tried to avoid even simple Sony wares (headphones, etc) - even if the hardware was sexy - on the theory that they were the sort of company that would sue the sort of person I consider myself to be (specifically, someone who is likely to hack any phone or game system I buy). Maybe others feel that way too. I don't know how much that would matter to the average phone user, but it might uniquely matter to the sort of people who are looking for an open boot process.
  - bdowney 14y ago
    I never understand this blind hated for Sony. The OtherOS thing was a reaction to the Geocrap clown. The people who design the phones have nothing to do with that anyway. The Xperia phones are awesome and Sony is actually one of the few well behaved manufacturers in the Android ecosystem.
    - vy8vWJlco 14y ago
      Respectfully, it doesn't make me feel any better to lose a major feature because it was a reaction to Geohot (who can be obnoxious). It's probably also too long a conversation to get into in-depth however, but I don't actually think what Geohot did warranted that reaction. Like I said, I am the type of person who would do exactly that, so Sony - based on observation, not malice - does not appear to be the kind of company I would prefer to support. I appreciate what the phone crew is doing too, and that's worth acknowledging, but I still recognize that their work, while immediately interesting to me, also puts food in the mouths of people who do not have what I consider to be my long-term interests at heart. That is not blind hatred, it is rationality and voting with my dollar. I have a strong desire to reward people who reward me. If the Sony execs convince me they have my interests at heart, I will put my money on the table again. For now, I think they've got enough from me, and I'd rather not fund my prosecution.
      - kalleboo 14y ago
        > I appreciate what the phone crew is doing too, and that's worth acknowledging Isn't it better to vote with your wallet? If you don't buy it, they'll think "well that open strategy didn't work, so let's try the closed thing Apple and Samsung are doing, those sell like hotcakes"
        vy8vWJlco 14y ago
        Having spent money in the past, I have voted for Sony and regretted it. I am still washing the taste out of my mouth. Trust is earned, and we are not square. My threshold has not yet been reached (maybe others are more ready to forgive). If they interpret my distrust as you say, that would be unfortunate and inaccurate - but if I were to ignore the history of my encounters, I could make the corresponding argument: they might interpret it as acceptance of those behaviors. I can only guess about the future, but at least I can learn from the past.
vy8vWJlco 14y ago
Yes, opening the boot process while providing no drivers, or binary-only drivers for a specific kernel, or blob-based firmware, are common tactics to deflate the expectation that control is a necessary feature of ownership. I can understand that sometimes the NDAs weave all the way down to the silicon manufacturers though, so it can be like pulling teeth to get anywhere at times. Notably, Google and Apple are both in good positions to promote control-in-ownership, if not FOSS, but only Google has taken that stance. Even without drivers, if hardware manufacturers were serious about delivering control with the hardware, they would prioritize providing as much of the same documentation they would have needed for internal development as possible, along with the device, to speed up community efforts to support hardware they may not be able to support themselves. I can understand it if their hands are tied (they could say if so, for example), but I consider the the HTC and Samsung (and Archos) bootloaders half-hearted. They are selling Android devices, and the early Android community was very excited about the prospect of a Linux phone (like they are about an Ubuntu phone or a Firefox phone, and were about the Neo Freerunner). They are understandably disappointed and vocal (and persistent, hacking them every which way)... It feels like the bootloader efforts from most manufacturers is more an attempt to deal with the negative PR than to deliver meaningful control, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

by sounds 14y ago

kalleboo 14y ago

Sony have also been very engaged with the open source community, with their own developers contributing on the XDA developers forums, participating in the AOSP[1], and they were the first outside Google to let anyone (not operator-locked) to unlock the bootloader with an official tool[2]. But everyone seems to ignore Sony phones for some reason. "Open friendly" does not seem to be a priority to customers, even ones who want to hack their phones. [1] https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/device-sony-c6603 https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/device-sony-c6603 [2] http://unlockbootloader.sonymobile.com http://unlockbootloader.sonymobile.com

vy8vWJlco 14y ago
I have had a very hard time trusting Sony since the removal of the OtherOS/Linux support on the PS3 (which was not their first hard-line opposition to owner control that came to my attention by then). Since then, I have tried to avoid even simple Sony wares (headphones, etc) - even if the hardware was sexy - on the theory that they were the sort of company that would sue the sort of person I consider myself to be (specifically, someone who is likely to hack any phone or game system I buy). Maybe others feel that way too. I don't know how much that would matter to the average phone user, but it might uniquely matter to the sort of people who are looking for an open boot process.
- bdowney 14y ago
  I never understand this blind hated for Sony. The OtherOS thing was a reaction to the Geocrap clown. The people who design the phones have nothing to do with that anyway. The Xperia phones are awesome and Sony is actually one of the few well behaved manufacturers in the Android ecosystem.
  - vy8vWJlco 14y ago
    Respectfully, it doesn't make me feel any better to lose a major feature because it was a reaction to Geohot (who can be obnoxious). It's probably also too long a conversation to get into in-depth however, but I don't actually think what Geohot did warranted that reaction. Like I said, I am the type of person who would do exactly that, so Sony - based on observation, not malice - does not appear to be the kind of company I would prefer to support. I appreciate what the phone crew is doing too, and that's worth acknowledging, but I still recognize that their work, while immediately interesting to me, also puts food in the mouths of people who do not have what I consider to be my long-term interests at heart. That is not blind hatred, it is rationality and voting with my dollar. I have a strong desire to reward people who reward me. If the Sony execs convince me they have my interests at heart, I will put my money on the table again. For now, I think they've got enough from me, and I'd rather not fund my prosecution.
    - kalleboo 14y ago
      > I appreciate what the phone crew is doing too, and that's worth acknowledging Isn't it better to vote with your wallet? If you don't buy it, they'll think "well that open strategy didn't work, so let's try the closed thing Apple and Samsung are doing, those sell like hotcakes"
      - vy8vWJlco 14y ago
        Having spent money in the past, I have voted for Sony and regretted it. I am still washing the taste out of my mouth. Trust is earned, and we are not square. My threshold has not yet been reached (maybe others are more ready to forgive). If they interpret my distrust as you say, that would be unfortunate and inaccurate - but if I were to ignore the history of my encounters, I could make the corresponding argument: they might interpret it as acceptance of those behaviors. I can only guess about the future, but at least I can learn from the past.

vy8vWJlco 14y ago

Yes, opening the boot process while providing no drivers, or binary-only drivers for a specific kernel, or blob-based firmware, are common tactics to deflate the expectation that control is a necessary feature of ownership. I can understand that sometimes the NDAs weave all the way down to the silicon manufacturers though, so it can be like pulling teeth to get anywhere at times. Notably, Google and Apple are both in good positions to promote control-in-ownership, if not FOSS, but only Google has taken that stance. Even without drivers, if hardware manufacturers were serious about delivering control with the hardware, they would prioritize providing as much of the same documentation they would have needed for internal development as possible, along with the device, to speed up community efforts to support hardware they may not be able to support themselves. I can understand it if their hands are tied (they could say if so, for example), but I consider the the HTC and Samsung (and Archos) bootloaders half-hearted. They are selling Android devices, and the early Android community was very excited about the prospect of a Linux phone (like they are about an Ubuntu phone or a Firefox phone, and were about the Neo Freerunner). They are understandably disappointed and vocal (and persistent, hacking them every which way)... It feels like the bootloader efforts from most manufacturers is more an attempt to deal with the negative PR than to deliver meaningful control, but I'd love to be proven wrong.