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What I want in a phone is the same thing I want in a computer or in calculator: the ability to use it on any problem I choose. It just so happens that subsidize

What I want in a phone is the same thing I want in a computer or in calculator: the ability to use it on any problem I choose. It just so happens that subsidized phones typically come from businesses with incentives towards lock-in (so you can expect what you will get). In the case of a phone, not being able to change the software that comes with it (upgrade the OS or remove bloatware), means I can't use it for every problem and it is a substantially less useful tool for me. The solution at the PC level was providing a user-accessible boot process. For a phone, this means an accessible bootloader is a minimum requirement for me to make a purchase, at least at the computer-equivalent ($100+) price-range. But, in general, I would not recommend buying any computer that treats you like an appliance operator instead of an owner and full user. I'm not saying single-purpose software (or the idea of a walled garden) is necessarily a problem, just that the inability to re-purpose is.

sounds 13y ago
Ok, excellent points there. Do you mind clarifying how you feel about Samsung phones in particular? They do have a semi-usable bootloader (cyanogenmod, clockwork mod, etc. work pretty well) but getting the graphics, touchscreen, accelerometer, sound, camera (pictures/video) and any other drivers to work in cyanogenmod can be just as much work after that first initial success (the bootloader). Without good drivers, a bootloader is only half the solution, in my opinion. I'm picking on Samsung because their phones are very, very common. But HTC is no better at publishing drivers. In fact, only the Google Nexus line has published drivers so that the software stack can be replaced to a degree.
- kalleboo 13y ago
  Sony have also been very engaged with the open source community, with their own developers contributing on the XDA developers forums, participating in the AOSP[1], and they were the first outside Google to let anyone (not operator-locked) to unlock the bootloader with an official tool[2]. But everyone seems to ignore Sony phones for some reason. "Open friendly" does not seem to be a priority to customers, even ones who want to hack their phones. [1] https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/device-sony-c6603 https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/device-sony-c6603 [2] http://unlockbootloader.sonymobile.com http://unlockbootloader.sonymobile.com
  - vy8vWJlco 13y ago
    I have had a very hard time trusting Sony since the removal of the OtherOS/Linux support on the PS3 (which was not their first hard-line opposition to owner control that came to my attention by then). Since then, I have tried to avoid even simple Sony wares (headphones, etc) - even if the hardware was sexy - on the theory that they were the sort of company that would sue the sort of person I consider myself to be (specifically, someone who is likely to hack any phone or game system I buy). Maybe others feel that way too. I don't know how much that would matter to the average phone user, but it might uniquely matter to the sort of people who are looking for an open boot process.
    - bdowney 13y ago
      I never understand this blind hated for Sony. The OtherOS thing was a reaction to the Geocrap clown. The people who design the phones have nothing to do with that anyway. The Xperia phones are awesome and Sony is actually one of the few well behaved manufacturers in the Android ecosystem.
      - vy8vWJlco 13y ago
        Respectfully, it doesn't make me feel any better to lose a major feature because it was a reaction to Geohot (who can be obnoxious). It's probably also too long a conversation to get into in-depth however, but I don't actually think what Geohot did warranted that reaction. Like I said, I am the type of person who would do exactly that, so Sony - based on observation, not malice - does not appear to be the kind of company I would prefer to support. I appreciate what the phone crew is doing too, and that's worth acknowledging, but I still recognize that their work, while immediately interesting to me, also puts food in the mouths of people who do not have what I consider to be my long-term interests at heart. That is not blind hatred, it is rationality and voting with my dollar. I have a strong desire to reward people who reward me. If the Sony execs convince me they have my interests at heart, I will put my money on the table again. For now, I think they've got enough from me, and I'd rather not fund my prosecution.
        13y ago
- vy8vWJlco 13y ago
  Yes, opening the boot process while providing no drivers, or binary-only drivers for a specific kernel, or blob-based firmware, are common tactics to deflate the expectation that control is a necessary feature of ownership. I can understand that sometimes the NDAs weave all the way down to the silicon manufacturers though, so it can be like pulling teeth to get anywhere at times. Notably, Google and Apple are both in good positions to promote control-in-ownership, if not FOSS, but only Google has taken that stance. Even without drivers, if hardware manufacturers were serious about delivering control with the hardware, they would prioritize providing as much of the same documentation they would have needed for internal development as possible, along with the device, to speed up community efforts to support hardware they may not be able to support themselves. I can understand it if their hands are tied (they could say if so, for example), but I consider the the HTC and Samsung (and Archos) bootloaders half-hearted. They are selling Android devices, and the early Android community was very excited about the prospect of a Linux phone (like they are about an Ubuntu phone or a Firefox phone, and were about the Neo Freerunner). They are understandably disappointed and vocal (and persistent, hacking them every which way)... It feels like the bootloader efforts from most manufacturers is more an attempt to deal with the negative PR than to deliver meaningful control, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
baddox 13y ago
To play the devil's advocate, why should I treat every appliance that happens to have a microprocessor in it as a general purpose computer with root access? Personally, I want some of my devices to have some of the same traits as appliances. I like my phone to just work, always. I don't want to even be able to misconfigure my phone in such a way that it doesn't work right. Don't get my wrong, for my PCs this isn't the case. I still like to be able to tinker, even if it means I can screw stuff up. But it's not that unreasonable to be offered a phone without full customization (or without it being easy), just like it is with microwaves, TVs, automobiles, etc. Granted, this is a very subjective issue. Some people want little Linux PCs with root access in their pockets, and for good reason. I'm just not one of those people. End devil's advocate.
- vy8vWJlco 13y ago
  OK, let's say you don't have control of your phone (or similar computer-like device) that's designed to run only one software application. If you discover that your phone is spying on you, or contains another defect, you have no way to repair it. You can only throw it away - that is the highest level of ownership/control you can exercise... That's your only reset button. You cannot reuse the general platform within. I would call that a waste, and certainly a reason to expect better. (Reset buttons are highly under-rated.) Different people are happy with different levels of control that largely depend on their level of expertise and resources. For example, to someone with a flash programmer, many devices are already very open. To someone with an SD card or a USB port, a bootloader is more empowering. Again, while I can see the case for single-purpose software, there could be a hardware override. For example, important/necessary firmware for the primary use-case could ship on an SD card with a write-protect switch, but be replaceable. Most desktop owners never replace their own hard drive, but that feature comes in quite handy to the computer techs who are expected to, or if the included software eventually fails and needs to be reset.
  - baddox 13y ago
    That all applies to appliances, right? If your microwave is spying on you, all you can do is crack open the case on your own (analogous to hardware hacks or jailbreaking) or throw it out. My point is that, for some people (even some technology enthusiasts), configurability/extensibility is a low priority for certain devices. And as for the people for whom configurability/extensibility is a top priority, I would just recommend they not buy the locked down devices unless they're hoping to find or invent a way to circumvent the locks.
na85 13y ago
Blackberry user here: Can't you just root the subsidized phone and install a clean version of android?
- vy8vWJlco 13y ago
  Each phone may have different hardware and need different drivers, so hardware support can be hit-or-miss. If the phone manufacturer provides an acceptable version (possible), and the carrier allows their update (never seen it personally), then that might be an option, but even then (assuming the equivalent of root access) - in all likelyhood - it would still be half a phone (from incomplete hardware support). A lack of drivers is only slightly less immediate an obstacle than the lack of an open bootloader. In fact, it's often the bootloader that prevents that type of side-loading (won't boot something not signed by the carrier, even with the right drivers) and development of alternatives (chicken vs egg), so it usually amounts to the same obstacle. If I could truly reset the software, I could replace it... I blame Djikstra for bad-mouthing GOTO. Resetting hardware is just an unconditional jump. :)
  - na85 13y ago
    But for the major, "headline" devices, like the Samsung Galaxy series or the HTC Nexus Whatevers, surely Android has good support for those already, right?
    - vy8vWJlco 13y ago
      http://source.android.com/source/building-devices.html http://source.android.com/source/building-devices.html "All configurations of Nexus S and Nexus S 4G can be used with Android 4.1.2. On those devices all the hardware is functional." That's the only compatibility I've seen offered by on the vanilla Android.

sounds 13y ago

Ok, excellent points there. Do you mind clarifying how you feel about Samsung phones in particular? They do have a semi-usable bootloader (cyanogenmod, clockwork mod, etc. work pretty well) but getting the graphics, touchscreen, accelerometer, sound, camera (pictures/video) and any other drivers to work in cyanogenmod can be just as much work after that first initial success (the bootloader). Without good drivers, a bootloader is only half the solution, in my opinion. I'm picking on Samsung because their phones are very, very common. But HTC is no better at publishing drivers. In fact, only the Google Nexus line has published drivers so that the software stack can be replaced to a degree.

kalleboo 13y ago
Sony have also been very engaged with the open source community, with their own developers contributing on the XDA developers forums, participating in the AOSP[1], and they were the first outside Google to let anyone (not operator-locked) to unlock the bootloader with an official tool[2]. But everyone seems to ignore Sony phones for some reason. "Open friendly" does not seem to be a priority to customers, even ones who want to hack their phones. [1] https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/device-sony-c6603 https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/device-sony-c6603 [2] http://unlockbootloader.sonymobile.com http://unlockbootloader.sonymobile.com
- vy8vWJlco 13y ago
  I have had a very hard time trusting Sony since the removal of the OtherOS/Linux support on the PS3 (which was not their first hard-line opposition to owner control that came to my attention by then). Since then, I have tried to avoid even simple Sony wares (headphones, etc) - even if the hardware was sexy - on the theory that they were the sort of company that would sue the sort of person I consider myself to be (specifically, someone who is likely to hack any phone or game system I buy). Maybe others feel that way too. I don't know how much that would matter to the average phone user, but it might uniquely matter to the sort of people who are looking for an open boot process.
  - bdowney 13y ago
    I never understand this blind hated for Sony. The OtherOS thing was a reaction to the Geocrap clown. The people who design the phones have nothing to do with that anyway. The Xperia phones are awesome and Sony is actually one of the few well behaved manufacturers in the Android ecosystem.
    - vy8vWJlco 13y ago
      Respectfully, it doesn't make me feel any better to lose a major feature because it was a reaction to Geohot (who can be obnoxious). It's probably also too long a conversation to get into in-depth however, but I don't actually think what Geohot did warranted that reaction. Like I said, I am the type of person who would do exactly that, so Sony - based on observation, not malice - does not appear to be the kind of company I would prefer to support. I appreciate what the phone crew is doing too, and that's worth acknowledging, but I still recognize that their work, while immediately interesting to me, also puts food in the mouths of people who do not have what I consider to be my long-term interests at heart. That is not blind hatred, it is rationality and voting with my dollar. I have a strong desire to reward people who reward me. If the Sony execs convince me they have my interests at heart, I will put my money on the table again. For now, I think they've got enough from me, and I'd rather not fund my prosecution.
      - 13y ago
vy8vWJlco 13y ago
Yes, opening the boot process while providing no drivers, or binary-only drivers for a specific kernel, or blob-based firmware, are common tactics to deflate the expectation that control is a necessary feature of ownership. I can understand that sometimes the NDAs weave all the way down to the silicon manufacturers though, so it can be like pulling teeth to get anywhere at times. Notably, Google and Apple are both in good positions to promote control-in-ownership, if not FOSS, but only Google has taken that stance. Even without drivers, if hardware manufacturers were serious about delivering control with the hardware, they would prioritize providing as much of the same documentation they would have needed for internal development as possible, along with the device, to speed up community efforts to support hardware they may not be able to support themselves. I can understand it if their hands are tied (they could say if so, for example), but I consider the the HTC and Samsung (and Archos) bootloaders half-hearted. They are selling Android devices, and the early Android community was very excited about the prospect of a Linux phone (like they are about an Ubuntu phone or a Firefox phone, and were about the Neo Freerunner). They are understandably disappointed and vocal (and persistent, hacking them every which way)... It feels like the bootloader efforts from most manufacturers is more an attempt to deal with the negative PR than to deliver meaningful control, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

baddox 13y ago

To play the devil's advocate, why should I treat every appliance that happens to have a microprocessor in it as a general purpose computer with root access? Personally, I want some of my devices to have some of the same traits as appliances. I like my phone to just work, always. I don't want to even be able to misconfigure my phone in such a way that it doesn't work right. Don't get my wrong, for my PCs this isn't the case. I still like to be able to tinker, even if it means I can screw stuff up. But it's not that unreasonable to be offered a phone without full customization (or without it being easy), just like it is with microwaves, TVs, automobiles, etc. Granted, this is a very subjective issue. Some people want little Linux PCs with root access in their pockets, and for good reason. I'm just not one of those people. End devil's advocate.

vy8vWJlco 13y ago
OK, let's say you don't have control of your phone (or similar computer-like device) that's designed to run only one software application. If you discover that your phone is spying on you, or contains another defect, you have no way to repair it. You can only throw it away - that is the highest level of ownership/control you can exercise... That's your only reset button. You cannot reuse the general platform within. I would call that a waste, and certainly a reason to expect better. (Reset buttons are highly under-rated.) Different people are happy with different levels of control that largely depend on their level of expertise and resources. For example, to someone with a flash programmer, many devices are already very open. To someone with an SD card or a USB port, a bootloader is more empowering. Again, while I can see the case for single-purpose software, there could be a hardware override. For example, important/necessary firmware for the primary use-case could ship on an SD card with a write-protect switch, but be replaceable. Most desktop owners never replace their own hard drive, but that feature comes in quite handy to the computer techs who are expected to, or if the included software eventually fails and needs to be reset.
- baddox 13y ago
  That all applies to appliances, right? If your microwave is spying on you, all you can do is crack open the case on your own (analogous to hardware hacks or jailbreaking) or throw it out. My point is that, for some people (even some technology enthusiasts), configurability/extensibility is a low priority for certain devices. And as for the people for whom configurability/extensibility is a top priority, I would just recommend they not buy the locked down devices unless they're hoping to find or invent a way to circumvent the locks.

na85 13y ago

Blackberry user here: Can't you just root the subsidized phone and install a clean version of android?

vy8vWJlco 13y ago
Each phone may have different hardware and need different drivers, so hardware support can be hit-or-miss. If the phone manufacturer provides an acceptable version (possible), and the carrier allows their update (never seen it personally), then that might be an option, but even then (assuming the equivalent of root access) - in all likelyhood - it would still be half a phone (from incomplete hardware support). A lack of drivers is only slightly less immediate an obstacle than the lack of an open bootloader. In fact, it's often the bootloader that prevents that type of side-loading (won't boot something not signed by the carrier, even with the right drivers) and development of alternatives (chicken vs egg), so it usually amounts to the same obstacle. If I could truly reset the software, I could replace it... I blame Djikstra for bad-mouthing GOTO. Resetting hardware is just an unconditional jump. :)
- na85 13y ago
  But for the major, "headline" devices, like the Samsung Galaxy series or the HTC Nexus Whatevers, surely Android has good support for those already, right?
  - vy8vWJlco 13y ago
    http://source.android.com/source/building-devices.html http://source.android.com/source/building-devices.html "All configurations of Nexus S and Nexus S 4G can be used with Android 4.1.2. On those devices all the hardware is functional." That's the only compatibility I've seen offered by on the vanilla Android.