4 ms·

Another reason I am not fond of this- it is easily hackable. I know some pretty average people who prepared for months, went through all questions they could fi

Another reason I am not fond of this- it is easily hackable. I know some pretty average people who prepared for months, went through all questions they could find online, ignored their day jobs and cleared the interviews, while some really talented people could not. Funny that this got brought on the Facebook thread. Though I never applied at FB, I have 'mentored' two people who made it through the process. Mentoring as in, helped them make sense (and see the general pattern) of the solutions which they saw online but could not appreciate/ understand on their own. Though I guess they had lesser trouble regurgitating the solutions in the interviews.

ritchiea 13y ago
I think that raises another question. You assume that they don't want the process to be hackable, what if they just want someone to see the patterns in those solutions because they believe those patterns arise in the work they will be doing at Facebook?
- kubrickslair 13y ago
  Though I doubt that, it might be true that being good in algorithmic puzzle-solving (as opposed to real-world algorithmic research/ development) helps employees in their day-to-day work. And I do think they maybe missing some real gems because of it. But in my opinion, they just need an easily definable and quantifiable process. And they are happy to look the other way when they see covert cheating/ hacking as long as it clears the process. And there is no denying that there is still a decent ability threshold which most covert cheating people too will pass, which I guess suffices the corp needs. I am a far bigger fan of pair programming after a basic phone screen, but large companies just can't do that.
kamaal 13y ago
Its very easy to game the interview at big web companies. I mean even if they ask all these text book academia related questions- Algo/DS ones etc. I remember once there was a question on Quora about an IIT BTech guy who had offers from all major web companies. Some one asked him how he did it. And his advice was that you had to simply 'practice'. Simply go out on the internet check for good interview forums work on it an hour every day. Even if you are actually a worthless programmer on the ground. You can pretty much ace any interview with simply practice. This also reminds of my Math classes in pre-university college here in India. I would generally try to solve a problem in more than one way and show it to my lecturer. One day she scolded me badly, that my experiments might end up in me scoring less marks. Her point was the evaluators were used to seeing a certain pattern of answers over years. And if the student had a new innovative answer, they would simply mark it wrong because it didn't their 'one true' answer, even if the solution was more elegant and better than the common pattern. Therefore the only way of scoring high marks was to practice all the common patterns. Rote learning works at all levels. I remember some days back I watched a interview of RMS on youtube, and he was asked a question on how you could be a good programmer and what books you had to read. And he gave a straight reply- You had to simply work on some hard real world problems/projects and bring them to closure. That was his advice. Too bad these days we check people on everything apart from their actual work.
- kubrickslair 13y ago
  Agree on all points. Interesting that you brought IIT up. Though I barely cleared IIT JEE and did not attend it for I could not get CS at any of the good schools, I had the feeling that it was becoming more and more hackable with the proliferation of coaching institutes. When I was in a top 5 PhD program which attracts the best of IIT K/B/M guys the quality drop became more evident over the years. There were and are still very bright IITians at my school, but I saw more noise coming in at later years. And for those who are not aware- there are cram shops in India which 'train' you to clear Google/ Microsoft interviews. And this has been going for at least 6 years, if not more. Now from talking to my friends in India I get the impression that the superficial interview difficulty is higher in India than the Bay Area for similar companies. And that is despite the work quality being much higher in Silicon Valley. It's all very funny and ironic.
  - kamaal 13y ago
    >>there are cram shops in India which 'train' you to clear Google/ Microsoft interviews. This is so true, that I can't even find ways how to assert it more. As a fresher, I attended a off campus interview here in Bangalore(Those who don't know- these are generally mass hiring drives, where hundreds/thousands get hired) where I happened to talk to a guy between written test sessions who even had taken very elaborate 'class notes' on clearing these interviews. He had gone through something like a 3 months coaching class just to attend these interviews. There are standard coaching materials, which are updated pretty frequently. Pretty much anything that they can ask you in these interviews will be covered. They have made you hard practice it so much it will be cake walk to you make it through. >>And this has been going for at least 6 years I can assure this has been going on for a very long time now. >>It's all very funny and ironic. Its all about the volumes. A recruiter told me, if a resumes falls down during a mass hiring drive they don't even bother to pick it up. We live in an era where recruiters search monster.com based on some keywords and pick up candidates based on that. So we are now down to SEO optimization for resumes. And then coaching classes to game the interviews. As a side note, in all major IT services companies in India you have to take 'certification exams' for pay hikes and promotions. I've seen people drop everything they do and practice clearing these for months. The worst part is you have to 'memorize' the whole material. Later I would see those people go on to get promotions and hikes, while the actual who go the work done fail(due to lack of time to practice) in the certification exams.
freshfunk 13y ago
From the post: "Good coding problems are fractal in nature. They can be extended arbitrarily to gauge the depth of your knowledge. For example, you might be asked to solve a problem any way you want. Then you'll be asked to solve it again in constant space or sub-linear time." You could prepare for months but if you don't understand the core CS concepts then it's difficult to hack these kinds of interview problems. Having a solution is one thing, but coming up with 3 different solutions to the same problem based on various constraints (preprocessing, space/time constraints) requires understanding. If they "hacked" this, then thru likely understand the concepts well enough such that its sufficient for the job. Also, interviewers should ask if they interviewee has seen the coding problem before and come prepared with a backup. Interviewers are also looking to see if the interviewee derives the answer too easily. Usually scraping the surface reveals whether the person really knows what they're talking about or not.
- kubrickslair 13y ago
  I don't disagree with anything you say. As I mentioned earlier that all people who hack such interviews do have basic understanding/skills requisite for the corp, quite enough to play the gymnastics of the interviews. A good interviewer does try to gauge whether the answer was known to the interviewee. But I have seen that happen far more at hot startups than big companies- primarily because of their more stringent process which leaves less wiggle room for guess work and is more tuned towards concretely judged parameters. I just don't like the facade of 'hiring the smartest people' in the world, when their mechanism largely filters just well-trained average people. And I most certainly don't want to sound condescending, so I apologize before-hand. But I probably used a different definition of average than what you or most people here may have in mind. I know quite a few ACM ICPC world finalists, am a region finalist myself, and have conducted/ published CS research with reasonable impact. So I was simply using my PhD program peers as good, and people with lesser (proven) skills as average. My fault, but I hope you can see what I was trying to say.
  - Evbn 13y ago
    Well trained average people are good enough to do great things. That is a feature, not a bug.
Evbn 13y ago
Why couldn't talented people also game the interview?
- jarek 13y ago
  Why would they bother to? Is there a shortage of opportunities for talented people to apply their effort instead of cramming an interview?

ritchiea 13y ago

I think that raises another question. You assume that they don't want the process to be hackable, what if they just want someone to see the patterns in those solutions because they believe those patterns arise in the work they will be doing at Facebook?

kubrickslair 13y ago
Though I doubt that, it might be true that being good in algorithmic puzzle-solving (as opposed to real-world algorithmic research/ development) helps employees in their day-to-day work. And I do think they maybe missing some real gems because of it. But in my opinion, they just need an easily definable and quantifiable process. And they are happy to look the other way when they see covert cheating/ hacking as long as it clears the process. And there is no denying that there is still a decent ability threshold which most covert cheating people too will pass, which I guess suffices the corp needs. I am a far bigger fan of pair programming after a basic phone screen, but large companies just can't do that.

kamaal 13y ago

Its very easy to game the interview at big web companies. I mean even if they ask all these text book academia related questions- Algo/DS ones etc. I remember once there was a question on Quora about an IIT BTech guy who had offers from all major web companies. Some one asked him how he did it. And his advice was that you had to simply 'practice'. Simply go out on the internet check for good interview forums work on it an hour every day. Even if you are actually a worthless programmer on the ground. You can pretty much ace any interview with simply practice. This also reminds of my Math classes in pre-university college here in India. I would generally try to solve a problem in more than one way and show it to my lecturer. One day she scolded me badly, that my experiments might end up in me scoring less marks. Her point was the evaluators were used to seeing a certain pattern of answers over years. And if the student had a new innovative answer, they would simply mark it wrong because it didn't their 'one true' answer, even if the solution was more elegant and better than the common pattern. Therefore the only way of scoring high marks was to practice all the common patterns. Rote learning works at all levels. I remember some days back I watched a interview of RMS on youtube, and he was asked a question on how you could be a good programmer and what books you had to read. And he gave a straight reply- You had to simply work on some hard real world problems/projects and bring them to closure. That was his advice. Too bad these days we check people on everything apart from their actual work.

kubrickslair 13y ago
Agree on all points. Interesting that you brought IIT up. Though I barely cleared IIT JEE and did not attend it for I could not get CS at any of the good schools, I had the feeling that it was becoming more and more hackable with the proliferation of coaching institutes. When I was in a top 5 PhD program which attracts the best of IIT K/B/M guys the quality drop became more evident over the years. There were and are still very bright IITians at my school, but I saw more noise coming in at later years. And for those who are not aware- there are cram shops in India which 'train' you to clear Google/ Microsoft interviews. And this has been going for at least 6 years, if not more. Now from talking to my friends in India I get the impression that the superficial interview difficulty is higher in India than the Bay Area for similar companies. And that is despite the work quality being much higher in Silicon Valley. It's all very funny and ironic.
- kamaal 13y ago
  >>there are cram shops in India which 'train' you to clear Google/ Microsoft interviews. This is so true, that I can't even find ways how to assert it more. As a fresher, I attended a off campus interview here in Bangalore(Those who don't know- these are generally mass hiring drives, where hundreds/thousands get hired) where I happened to talk to a guy between written test sessions who even had taken very elaborate 'class notes' on clearing these interviews. He had gone through something like a 3 months coaching class just to attend these interviews. There are standard coaching materials, which are updated pretty frequently. Pretty much anything that they can ask you in these interviews will be covered. They have made you hard practice it so much it will be cake walk to you make it through. >>And this has been going for at least 6 years I can assure this has been going on for a very long time now. >>It's all very funny and ironic. Its all about the volumes. A recruiter told me, if a resumes falls down during a mass hiring drive they don't even bother to pick it up. We live in an era where recruiters search monster.com based on some keywords and pick up candidates based on that. So we are now down to SEO optimization for resumes. And then coaching classes to game the interviews. As a side note, in all major IT services companies in India you have to take 'certification exams' for pay hikes and promotions. I've seen people drop everything they do and practice clearing these for months. The worst part is you have to 'memorize' the whole material. Later I would see those people go on to get promotions and hikes, while the actual who go the work done fail(due to lack of time to practice) in the certification exams.

freshfunk 13y ago

From the post: "Good coding problems are fractal in nature. They can be extended arbitrarily to gauge the depth of your knowledge. For example, you might be asked to solve a problem any way you want. Then you'll be asked to solve it again in constant space or sub-linear time." You could prepare for months but if you don't understand the core CS concepts then it's difficult to hack these kinds of interview problems. Having a solution is one thing, but coming up with 3 different solutions to the same problem based on various constraints (preprocessing, space/time constraints) requires understanding. If they "hacked" this, then thru likely understand the concepts well enough such that its sufficient for the job. Also, interviewers should ask if they interviewee has seen the coding problem before and come prepared with a backup. Interviewers are also looking to see if the interviewee derives the answer too easily. Usually scraping the surface reveals whether the person really knows what they're talking about or not.

kubrickslair 13y ago
I don't disagree with anything you say. As I mentioned earlier that all people who hack such interviews do have basic understanding/skills requisite for the corp, quite enough to play the gymnastics of the interviews. A good interviewer does try to gauge whether the answer was known to the interviewee. But I have seen that happen far more at hot startups than big companies- primarily because of their more stringent process which leaves less wiggle room for guess work and is more tuned towards concretely judged parameters. I just don't like the facade of 'hiring the smartest people' in the world, when their mechanism largely filters just well-trained average people. And I most certainly don't want to sound condescending, so I apologize before-hand. But I probably used a different definition of average than what you or most people here may have in mind. I know quite a few ACM ICPC world finalists, am a region finalist myself, and have conducted/ published CS research with reasonable impact. So I was simply using my PhD program peers as good, and people with lesser (proven) skills as average. My fault, but I hope you can see what I was trying to say.
- Evbn 13y ago
  Well trained average people are good enough to do great things. That is a feature, not a bug.

Evbn 13y ago

Why couldn't talented people also game the interview?

jarek 13y ago
Why would they bother to? Is there a shortage of opportunities for talented people to apply their effort instead of cramming an interview?