4 ms·

It's worrying to see that Caplan thinks his "keyhole" solutions are politically feasible. Let's say you let the genie out of the bottle and allow open immigrat

It's worrying to see that Caplan thinks his "keyhole" solutions are politically feasible. Let's say you let the genie out of the bottle and allow open immigration with several restrictions (higher taxes, no right to vote) for this new group of immigrants. First you have a problem with deciding when to lift these restrictions (10 years, a test, only the next generation?). Even if you find a solution, you will be breeding resentment due to imposed inequality. Now you are facing a protest and political movement composed of immigrants and their citizen sympathizers who are demanding the ever-popular "justice, equality, etc". For a recent example see the illegal immigrant Debate in the US. Southern illegals are already entering the US (illegally) as if the borders are open, already face discrimination and restricted rights and already have a political movement to fight for things that matter to them.

davidw 14y ago
> you will be breeding resentment due to imposed inequality. Telling those people to stay the hell out isn't exactly winning you any points either. In any event, political article, consider flagging.
- lobotryas 14y ago
  Winning points with whom? Who is keeping score in this case?
- saffer 14y ago
  Discontented people within your borders are a much bigger problem then discontented people outside your borders though. Also, as a potential future immigrant (native English speaker, doing a PhD in the US, not very culturally distant from Americans except perhaps for a greater appreciation of Monty Python) I would feel extremely alienated if told I had to pay higher taxes for the rest of my life just because I was born elsewhere. The current immigration system may be frustrating at times, but at least I can hold onto the hope that if I become a citizen here, I will have the same rights as everyone else. (Except running for president, which isn't relevant to my planned career path anyway.)
lsc 14y ago
>Even if you find a solution, you will be breeding resentment due to imposed inequality. Now you are facing a protest and political movement composed of immigrants and their citizen sympathizers who are demanding the ever-popular "justice, equality, etc". For a recent example see the illegal immigrant Debate in the US. Southern illegals are already entering the US (illegally) as if the borders are open, already face discrimination and restricted rights and already have a political movement to fight for things that matter to them. Worst case I see is something like France, (and I'm picking on France, but my understanding is that this is super common. Japan and much of Europe also have a 'blood' component to citizenship.) where they don't have 'by right of the soil' citizenship; you can be born in France, but still not be a french citizen, because of who your parents were. And yeah, they see problems from it. They have a permanent underclass of hereditary non-citizens. Personally, I think that as long as we keep that particular Americanism (which is to say, if you are born on US soil, you are a full American, and at least legally equal to any other American, regardless of who your parents were or what you look like, or what hoops you choose to jump through.) I think we'll be ahead of the game (vs. other countries) "keyhole solutions" I think are feasible if they aren't multi-generational. You /really/ don't want to grow that multi-generational non-citizen underclass. If you only have those restrictions on people who immigrate, and not their children born here? I would see that as an expanded guest worker type program, and it would probably have similar political consequences as an expanded guest worker type program.
- lobotryas 14y ago
  Jus Soli[1] has its own share of challenges and problems[2][3]. Personally I would prefer the US to abolish or drastically modify the American Jus Soli provision. It has caused too many heart-breaking situations where the illegal immigrant's child is a citizen and has to enter the foster system because his parents get being deported. Overall only education, integration and the political clout to refuse to sacrifice democratic principles in the face of potential demands from new immigrants is a way that open immigration can work. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_tourism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_tourism [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_babies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_babies

davidw 14y ago

> you will be breeding resentment due to imposed inequality. Telling those people to stay the hell out isn't exactly winning you any points either. In any event, political article, consider flagging.

lobotryas 14y ago
Winning points with whom? Who is keeping score in this case?
saffer 14y ago
Discontented people within your borders are a much bigger problem then discontented people outside your borders though. Also, as a potential future immigrant (native English speaker, doing a PhD in the US, not very culturally distant from Americans except perhaps for a greater appreciation of Monty Python) I would feel extremely alienated if told I had to pay higher taxes for the rest of my life just because I was born elsewhere. The current immigration system may be frustrating at times, but at least I can hold onto the hope that if I become a citizen here, I will have the same rights as everyone else. (Except running for president, which isn't relevant to my planned career path anyway.)

lsc 14y ago

>Even if you find a solution, you will be breeding resentment due to imposed inequality. Now you are facing a protest and political movement composed of immigrants and their citizen sympathizers who are demanding the ever-popular "justice, equality, etc". For a recent example see the illegal immigrant Debate in the US. Southern illegals are already entering the US (illegally) as if the borders are open, already face discrimination and restricted rights and already have a political movement to fight for things that matter to them. Worst case I see is something like France, (and I'm picking on France, but my understanding is that this is super common. Japan and much of Europe also have a 'blood' component to citizenship.) where they don't have 'by right of the soil' citizenship; you can be born in France, but still not be a french citizen, because of who your parents were. And yeah, they see problems from it. They have a permanent underclass of hereditary non-citizens. Personally, I think that as long as we keep that particular Americanism (which is to say, if you are born on US soil, you are a full American, and at least legally equal to any other American, regardless of who your parents were or what you look like, or what hoops you choose to jump through.) I think we'll be ahead of the game (vs. other countries) "keyhole solutions" I think are feasible if they aren't multi-generational. You /really/ don't want to grow that multi-generational non-citizen underclass. If you only have those restrictions on people who immigrate, and not their children born here? I would see that as an expanded guest worker type program, and it would probably have similar political consequences as an expanded guest worker type program.

lobotryas 14y ago
Jus Soli[1] has its own share of challenges and problems[2][3]. Personally I would prefer the US to abolish or drastically modify the American Jus Soli provision. It has caused too many heart-breaking situations where the illegal immigrant's child is a citizen and has to enter the foster system because his parents get being deported. Overall only education, integration and the political clout to refuse to sacrifice democratic principles in the face of potential demands from new immigrants is a way that open immigration can work. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_tourism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_tourism [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_babies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_babies