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>The last thing I want is for legislators to decide how much my service providers can charge and for what services they'll do so. You can't suddenly impose lai

by rms 18y ago

>The last thing I want is for legislators to decide how much my service providers can charge and for what services they'll do so. You can't suddenly impose laissez-faire capitalism on an industry so closely tied to government regulation. Continued regulation is needed so that corporations can't take advantage of the infrastructure privileges granted to them. There's plenty of bandwidth to go around. No one had a monopoly over dial-up, the difference with broadband is that there is a legislated monopoly.

tjic 18y ago
> You can't suddenly impose laissez-faire capitalism on an industry so closely tied to government regulation. Pretty much every time it's been tried, you get a ton of innovation and rapidly falling costs. The US, ICC trucking regulation led to much cheaper trucking. Telecom deregulation led to an explosion of services, cell phones, and drastically lower prices. Airline deregulation led to a falling fairs, making air travel accessible to more than just the upper and upper middle class (and, because air travel is much safer per mile traveled than car travel, deregulation has saved tens of thousands of lives). > this is just profit-mongering Oh, horrors - we wouldn't want people to try to provide services in order to make money!
- ingenium 18y ago
  The problem is that they aren't deregulating the industry. Providers such as Comcast are legislated monopolies in certain areas, and do not lease out their lines to anyone else. There isn't anyone else to go to when these providers begin instituting caps. I believe what rms is saying is you can't apply laisse-faire capitalism to a government instituted monopoly. You either need to remove the monopoly and allow capitalism to do its thing, or you need to institute regulation to prevent them from ripping off the customer. > Oh, horrors - we wouldn't want people to try to provide services in order to make money! As everyone has said, there's plenty of bandwidth to go around, so why are they doing this? They're doing it because there is no competition to prevent them from doing so. They certainly aren't hurting for money. They're simply taking advantage of the lack of competition provided by government mandate.
  - randallsquared 18y ago
    > You either need to remove the monopoly and allow capitalism to do its thing, or you need to institute regulation to prevent them from ripping off the customer. Except that, in general, instituting regulation to fix the problem that the monopoly caused doesn't actually fix things, but only partially fixes those problems, and introduces different problems. Removing the monopoly grant is by far the better solution.
  - rms 18y ago
    Thank you for saying what I meant to say. (Josh is my internet comment argument ringer)
tom_rath 18y ago
It's not laissez-faire and it's not 'suddenly imposed' If there's plenty of bandwidth to go around and existing providers impose caps, then new entrants will lease that bandwidth and provide residential customers with unlimited bandwidth plans. Telecom regulations should prevent new entrants from being blocked from doing just that. If they are blocked (and the Canadian system isn't laissez-faire, so they shouldn't be), then you'll have an issue to gripe about.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- electromagnetic 18y ago
  They aren't blocked, what Bell is doing is trying to block the system! All small ISP's are forced to go through Bell's network, and Bell is trying to charge them higher per gigabyte than they do their own customers, so you have no choice but to go with Bell if you're stranded on their network.
  - rms 18y ago
    Locally to me, Verizon wholesales DSL at retail prices. So it is $30/month to get it from Verizon and $60/month to get it from anyone else.
    - mrtron 18y ago
      The problem being Bell is wanting to cap all the other providers. Currently here it is the opposite - it is cheaper from other providers than from Bell directly. Now, it wants to be able to also cap those other providers to prevent them from offering unlimited services. Bell wants to do what it does in the mobile space and nail everyone with massive overage fees after the tiny limits are exceeded. Until mid 2008, the largest cell phone data plan you could get from Bell or Rogers was 5 MEGS. They charged by the kilobyte after that.

by rms 18y ago

tjic 18y ago

> You can't suddenly impose laissez-faire capitalism on an industry so closely tied to government regulation. Pretty much every time it's been tried, you get a ton of innovation and rapidly falling costs. The US, ICC trucking regulation led to much cheaper trucking. Telecom deregulation led to an explosion of services, cell phones, and drastically lower prices. Airline deregulation led to a falling fairs, making air travel accessible to more than just the upper and upper middle class (and, because air travel is much safer per mile traveled than car travel, deregulation has saved tens of thousands of lives). > this is just profit-mongering Oh, horrors - we wouldn't want people to try to provide services in order to make money!

ingenium 18y ago
The problem is that they aren't deregulating the industry. Providers such as Comcast are legislated monopolies in certain areas, and do not lease out their lines to anyone else. There isn't anyone else to go to when these providers begin instituting caps. I believe what rms is saying is you can't apply laisse-faire capitalism to a government instituted monopoly. You either need to remove the monopoly and allow capitalism to do its thing, or you need to institute regulation to prevent them from ripping off the customer. > Oh, horrors - we wouldn't want people to try to provide services in order to make money! As everyone has said, there's plenty of bandwidth to go around, so why are they doing this? They're doing it because there is no competition to prevent them from doing so. They certainly aren't hurting for money. They're simply taking advantage of the lack of competition provided by government mandate.
- randallsquared 18y ago
  > You either need to remove the monopoly and allow capitalism to do its thing, or you need to institute regulation to prevent them from ripping off the customer. Except that, in general, instituting regulation to fix the problem that the monopoly caused doesn't actually fix things, but only partially fixes those problems, and introduces different problems. Removing the monopoly grant is by far the better solution.
- rms 18y ago
  Thank you for saying what I meant to say. (Josh is my internet comment argument ringer)

tom_rath 18y ago

It's not laissez-faire and it's not 'suddenly imposed' If there's plenty of bandwidth to go around and existing providers impose caps, then new entrants will lease that bandwidth and provide residential customers with unlimited bandwidth plans. Telecom regulations should prevent new entrants from being blocked from doing just that. If they are blocked (and the Canadian system isn't laissez-faire, so they shouldn't be), then you'll have an issue to gripe about.

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
electromagnetic 18y ago
They aren't blocked, what Bell is doing is trying to block the system! All small ISP's are forced to go through Bell's network, and Bell is trying to charge them higher per gigabyte than they do their own customers, so you have no choice but to go with Bell if you're stranded on their network.
- rms 18y ago
  Locally to me, Verizon wholesales DSL at retail prices. So it is $30/month to get it from Verizon and $60/month to get it from anyone else.
  - mrtron 18y ago
    The problem being Bell is wanting to cap all the other providers. Currently here it is the opposite - it is cheaper from other providers than from Bell directly. Now, it wants to be able to also cap those other providers to prevent them from offering unlimited services. Bell wants to do what it does in the mobile space and nail everyone with massive overage fees after the tiny limits are exceeded. Until mid 2008, the largest cell phone data plan you could get from Bell or Rogers was 5 MEGS. They charged by the kilobyte after that.