4 ms·

Organized crime is a government and vice versa

by bcoates 13y ago

saraid216 13y ago
Only if you consider yourself God.
- loup-vaillant 13y ago
  Compare: not paying taxes on the one hand, and not paying the local extortionist. In both cases, you get violence inflicted upon you. State tend to be gentler about it however. Structurally, organized crime is about enforcing rules that don't fit with the rules set by the country where you commit those crimes. For your own profit, I might add. I find it eerily similar to the local warlord trying to carve a little country by force. The real difference between a country and organized crime is one of size and comprehensiveness. (I'm tempted to add legitimacy, but then there's North Korea.)
  - saraid216 13y ago
    Right. And secular governments enforce rules that don't fit with the moral rules set by God where you commit those immoralities. Like taxes.
    - loup-vaillant 13y ago
      Actually… yes. It is again a question of size (God is quite greater than any one government), and of comprehensiveness (secular governments are quite lenient with religious, sexual, and reproductive practices). Just two minor details: First, thanks to having eaten the Forbidden Fruit, we no longer need to consult God to know what's immoral. We are now quite capable of making our own decisions. If my moral standard sufficiently diverges from God's, that just makes us enemies. Second, to the best of my knowledge, there is no God. At least, nothing resembling Yahweh.
      - saraid216 13y ago
        If you'd like to debate theology, you're welcome to state a position and stick to it. You either consider yourself the final arbiter on morals, and thus whether or not taxation is moral, or you don't. If you'd like to introduce nuance into the dichotomy, you are welcome to. But it sounds to me like you are not a person who recognizes the validity of any argument that doesn't extend from force in one way or another, so I'm having trouble seeing how your concept of God works with your agreement with people who pretend to be God.
        loup-vaillant 13y ago
        If possible, I'd avoid debating theology. It would take months for us to agree on the existence of God alone, and provided it does exist, you likely know far more about God's morality than I do. > Only if you consider yourself God. That one pushes us way back, but my initial response was a "proving the other wrong" knee-jerk reaction, and I failed to ask: what did you actually mean by that? More precisely, how one needs to consider oneself God to believe in the similarities between states and organized crime? > You either consider yourself the final arbiter on morals, and thus whether or not taxation is moral, or you don't. That I can answer. Strictly speaking, I do consider myself the final arbiter on morals. Meaning, what I want has priority over anything else. There's a couple of catches however. First, I do care about other people, and I do care about what they want and what they consider moral. If I were to impose my will on everyone, I'd leave considerable leeway for others to do as they please. Second, I don't really know what I want, and what I consider "moral". Third, even if I knew, I'm not sure how to achieve it. Take taxes for instance. They have a host of consequences, some of which are obviously desirable (like, money to build schools), some of which are obviously undesirable (like, kicking some people out of their houses). And when I compare the benefits and the costs, I'm not sure which outweigh the other. > But it sounds to me like you are not a person who recognizes the validity of any argument that doesn't extend from force in one way or another, so I'm having trouble seeing how your concept of God works with your agreement with people who pretend to be God. Sorry, I cannot make sense of this one. What does it mean for an argument to "extend from force"? What do you think my concept of God is? What is your model of people who pretend to be God?
RyanMcGreal 13y ago
Organized crime (and more generally warlordism) is what happens when the state does not have an effective monopoly on the use of violence.

Organized crime is a government and vice versa

by bcoates 13y ago

Organized crime is a government and vice versa

saraid216 13y ago

Only if you consider yourself God.

loup-vaillant 13y ago
Compare: not paying taxes on the one hand, and not paying the local extortionist. In both cases, you get violence inflicted upon you. State tend to be gentler about it however. Structurally, organized crime is about enforcing rules that don't fit with the rules set by the country where you commit those crimes. For your own profit, I might add. I find it eerily similar to the local warlord trying to carve a little country by force. The real difference between a country and organized crime is one of size and comprehensiveness. (I'm tempted to add legitimacy, but then there's North Korea.)
- saraid216 13y ago
  Right. And secular governments enforce rules that don't fit with the moral rules set by God where you commit those immoralities. Like taxes.
  - loup-vaillant 13y ago
    Actually… yes. It is again a question of size (God is quite greater than any one government), and of comprehensiveness (secular governments are quite lenient with religious, sexual, and reproductive practices). Just two minor details: First, thanks to having eaten the Forbidden Fruit, we no longer need to consult God to know what's immoral. We are now quite capable of making our own decisions. If my moral standard sufficiently diverges from God's, that just makes us enemies. Second, to the best of my knowledge, there is no God. At least, nothing resembling Yahweh.
    - saraid216 13y ago
      If you'd like to debate theology, you're welcome to state a position and stick to it. You either consider yourself the final arbiter on morals, and thus whether or not taxation is moral, or you don't. If you'd like to introduce nuance into the dichotomy, you are welcome to. But it sounds to me like you are not a person who recognizes the validity of any argument that doesn't extend from force in one way or another, so I'm having trouble seeing how your concept of God works with your agreement with people who pretend to be God.
      - loup-vaillant 13y ago
        If possible, I'd avoid debating theology. It would take months for us to agree on the existence of God alone, and provided it does exist, you likely know far more about God's morality than I do. > Only if you consider yourself God. That one pushes us way back, but my initial response was a "proving the other wrong" knee-jerk reaction, and I failed to ask: what did you actually mean by that? More precisely, how one needs to consider oneself God to believe in the similarities between states and organized crime? > You either consider yourself the final arbiter on morals, and thus whether or not taxation is moral, or you don't. That I can answer. Strictly speaking, I do consider myself the final arbiter on morals. Meaning, what I want has priority over anything else. There's a couple of catches however. First, I do care about other people, and I do care about what they want and what they consider moral. If I were to impose my will on everyone, I'd leave considerable leeway for others to do as they please. Second, I don't really know what I want, and what I consider "moral". Third, even if I knew, I'm not sure how to achieve it. Take taxes for instance. They have a host of consequences, some of which are obviously desirable (like, money to build schools), some of which are obviously undesirable (like, kicking some people out of their houses). And when I compare the benefits and the costs, I'm not sure which outweigh the other. > But it sounds to me like you are not a person who recognizes the validity of any argument that doesn't extend from force in one way or another, so I'm having trouble seeing how your concept of God works with your agreement with people who pretend to be God. Sorry, I cannot make sense of this one. What does it mean for an argument to "extend from force"? What do you think my concept of God is? What is your model of people who pretend to be God?

RyanMcGreal 13y ago

Organized crime (and more generally warlordism) is what happens when the state does not have an effective monopoly on the use of violence.