3 ms·

Yeah, I could have worded my objection better. I'm not doubting that the rather brutal nature of OSS is a problem for both men and women. I'm just skeptical tha

by archon 13y ago

Yeah, I could have worded my objection better. I'm not doubting that the rather brutal nature of OSS is a problem for both men and women. I'm just skeptical that it affects women disproportionately. If you say "getting your code ripped to shreds in public sucks," I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. If you say "getting your code ripped to shreds in public as a woman sucks more," that's where I get skeptical. And if that's the case, why is it a bigger problem for women? Note that I'm not arguing against GitHub giving private repos to whomever they please. They can sponsor who they like. I was just looking for some explanation of that "women are more affected by this than men" claim.

marquis 13y ago
Here's a good reason: your entire comment is judgmental and assuming. It's not about hearing "hey, good job girl! Have a cookie!" It's about not hearing "your code is badly formatted, didn't you go to CS school?" instead of "that was a good refactor there, but you'll find it easier to read and share if you indent". Women have just grown up in different kind of group dynamics - and while women can be horribly nasty to each other in artificial groups, it's usually not the case when they choose to work together independently.
- pifflesnort 13y ago
  To quote another story on the front page: ... that’s what happens when we hold events for women in IT when there aren’t that many women in this industry – we tend to broaden the definition of women in IT. The software industry exists to write software, and ideally it's good software. We're not here to engender happy feelings about bad code. If you're worried about immature people non-constructively mocking your code, then the solution is to realize that those people are unlikely to be particularly great developers themselves, and aren't worth paying attention to. Any sufficiently experienced and mature developer ought to know better than to throw stones from the glass house of their own imperfection. It's better to join or create a welcoming community of experts, than trying to create a coddling safe-space where equally inexperienced people can provide each other with congratulatory pats on the back.
  - marquis 13y ago
    There are an estimated 9-12% women in the field of programming. Are you saying that 90% of the female population has no balls? Or is it more likely that due the systemic method of education, girls don't get interested in programming because by the time they are taught it, the boys are in the computer lab making a ruckus and they'd rather go socialize elsewhere. I speak with teachers at primary schools who get girls as young as 9 to enter robotics competitions. I mentor young programmers to stay enthused, get through their teen years (more often than not, not programming because of socialization aspect) and pick it up again in their later teens when being alone is fine again. And now the IRC channels and open source communities are solely male and there seems no way in. Ada, of all foundations, knows this better than anyone and this is very, very small step to get some more girls back into coding and sharing that experience with others.
    - pifflesnort 13y ago
      > Are you saying that 90% of the female population has no balls? No. The major hurdles to becoming a programmer are crossed long before it becomes time to put code in a github repository. > Or is it more likely that due the systemic method of education, girls don't get interested in programming because by the time they are taught it, the boys are in the computer lab making a ruckus and they'd rather go socialize elsewhere. Given that there aren't any well-considered studies that show fundamental non-socially-caused cognitive differences between men and women, and that behavior seems to be entirely mutable and culturally-driven, then the fact that "they'd rather go socialize elsewhere" is likely the result of considerable cultural programming outside the immediate realm of putting code into a machine. Of course, it's not that simple -- yours is a broad and inaccurate generalization of what girls want in school, and of how boys behave in school. Personally speaking, I didn't want to spend any time in the computer lab either, because the only people in there were super-nerds playing video games for hours.
      - marquis 13y ago
        > the only people in there were super-nerds playing video games for hours I know! It was really annoying. I just wanted to get stuck into computerized maths, CAD and plotting when I was 14 but it was uncomfortable being the only girl in the lab during lunch hours. If there had been another boy or girl I respected as a friend there I might have joined in, not to be sociable but just knowing there was someone else there who wasn't geeking out on gaming.

by archon 13y ago

marquis 13y ago

Here's a good reason: your entire comment is judgmental and assuming. It's not about hearing "hey, good job girl! Have a cookie!" It's about not hearing "your code is badly formatted, didn't you go to CS school?" instead of "that was a good refactor there, but you'll find it easier to read and share if you indent". Women have just grown up in different kind of group dynamics - and while women can be horribly nasty to each other in artificial groups, it's usually not the case when they choose to work together independently.

pifflesnort 13y ago
To quote another story on the front page: ... that’s what happens when we hold events for women in IT when there aren’t that many women in this industry – we tend to broaden the definition of women in IT. The software industry exists to write software, and ideally it's good software. We're not here to engender happy feelings about bad code. If you're worried about immature people non-constructively mocking your code, then the solution is to realize that those people are unlikely to be particularly great developers themselves, and aren't worth paying attention to. Any sufficiently experienced and mature developer ought to know better than to throw stones from the glass house of their own imperfection. It's better to join or create a welcoming community of experts, than trying to create a coddling safe-space where equally inexperienced people can provide each other with congratulatory pats on the back.
- marquis 13y ago
  There are an estimated 9-12% women in the field of programming. Are you saying that 90% of the female population has no balls? Or is it more likely that due the systemic method of education, girls don't get interested in programming because by the time they are taught it, the boys are in the computer lab making a ruckus and they'd rather go socialize elsewhere. I speak with teachers at primary schools who get girls as young as 9 to enter robotics competitions. I mentor young programmers to stay enthused, get through their teen years (more often than not, not programming because of socialization aspect) and pick it up again in their later teens when being alone is fine again. And now the IRC channels and open source communities are solely male and there seems no way in. Ada, of all foundations, knows this better than anyone and this is very, very small step to get some more girls back into coding and sharing that experience with others.
  - pifflesnort 13y ago
    > Are you saying that 90% of the female population has no balls? No. The major hurdles to becoming a programmer are crossed long before it becomes time to put code in a github repository. > Or is it more likely that due the systemic method of education, girls don't get interested in programming because by the time they are taught it, the boys are in the computer lab making a ruckus and they'd rather go socialize elsewhere. Given that there aren't any well-considered studies that show fundamental non-socially-caused cognitive differences between men and women, and that behavior seems to be entirely mutable and culturally-driven, then the fact that "they'd rather go socialize elsewhere" is likely the result of considerable cultural programming outside the immediate realm of putting code into a machine. Of course, it's not that simple -- yours is a broad and inaccurate generalization of what girls want in school, and of how boys behave in school. Personally speaking, I didn't want to spend any time in the computer lab either, because the only people in there were super-nerds playing video games for hours.
    - marquis 13y ago
      > the only people in there were super-nerds playing video games for hours I know! It was really annoying. I just wanted to get stuck into computerized maths, CAD and plotting when I was 14 but it was uncomfortable being the only girl in the lab during lunch hours. If there had been another boy or girl I respected as a friend there I might have joined in, not to be sociable but just knowing there was someone else there who wasn't geeking out on gaming.