5 ms·

> This reluctance has good reasons behind it: fear of being told they are bad programmers, fear of being publicly mocked or harassed, and even fear of losing jo

by archon 13y ago

> This reluctance has good reasons behind it: fear of being told they are bad programmers, fear of being publicly mocked or harassed, and even fear of losing job opportunities. All of these are greater risks for women on average than men. [Citation needed] Edit, to expand on the kneejerk reaction: I find it difficult to accept the premise that this is a female-only problem. I've been reluctant to post my code before as well, and I'm male. The sometimes ruthless mockery of code isn't confined to code written by females.

marquis 13y ago
For what it's worth, you'd be completely welcome as far as I'm (as a female) concerned. Women don't want to just hang out with women but this is an opportunity for us to get our feet wet in the OS community. As soon as a project is underway with pride, it will become a public repo and I hope you can seek out those communities and work alongside. I just watched The Color Purple last night. It rings true in me because it's not that people aren't free - it's the constant, constant underlying of fear from all sides. If you have fear as a man then women don't want that either - you should be proud and comfortable as only fear begets fear.
steveklabnik 13y ago
> I find it difficult to accept the premise that this is a female-only problem. It doesn't need to be a woman-only problem. It just needs to affect women disproportionately. Scratch that, it doesn't need to be _anything_. Giving free repos to _anyone_ does no harm to anyone who's not getting them, so the only thing this does is help a group of people. Now, you may argue that GitHub should be helping a specific group of people over another one, but they've chosen to help who they've chosen to help.
- archon 13y ago
  Yeah, I could have worded my objection better. I'm not doubting that the rather brutal nature of OSS is a problem for both men and women. I'm just skeptical that it affects women disproportionately. If you say "getting your code ripped to shreds in public sucks," I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. If you say "getting your code ripped to shreds in public as a woman sucks more," that's where I get skeptical. And if that's the case, why is it a bigger problem for women? Note that I'm not arguing against GitHub giving private repos to whomever they please. They can sponsor who they like. I was just looking for some explanation of that "women are more affected by this than men" claim.
  - marquis 13y ago
    Here's a good reason: your entire comment is judgmental and assuming. It's not about hearing "hey, good job girl! Have a cookie!" It's about not hearing "your code is badly formatted, didn't you go to CS school?" instead of "that was a good refactor there, but you'll find it easier to read and share if you indent". Women have just grown up in different kind of group dynamics - and while women can be horribly nasty to each other in artificial groups, it's usually not the case when they choose to work together independently.
    - pifflesnort 13y ago
      To quote another story on the front page: ... that’s what happens when we hold events for women in IT when there aren’t that many women in this industry – we tend to broaden the definition of women in IT. The software industry exists to write software, and ideally it's good software. We're not here to engender happy feelings about bad code. If you're worried about immature people non-constructively mocking your code, then the solution is to realize that those people are unlikely to be particularly great developers themselves, and aren't worth paying attention to. Any sufficiently experienced and mature developer ought to know better than to throw stones from the glass house of their own imperfection. It's better to join or create a welcoming community of experts, than trying to create a coddling safe-space where equally inexperienced people can provide each other with congratulatory pats on the back.
      - marquis 13y ago
        There are an estimated 9-12% women in the field of programming. Are you saying that 90% of the female population has no balls? Or is it more likely that due the systemic method of education, girls don't get interested in programming because by the time they are taught it, the boys are in the computer lab making a ruckus and they'd rather go socialize elsewhere. I speak with teachers at primary schools who get girls as young as 9 to enter robotics competitions. I mentor young programmers to stay enthused, get through their teen years (more often than not, not programming because of socialization aspect) and pick it up again in their later teens when being alone is fine again. And now the IRC channels and open source communities are solely male and there seems no way in. Ada, of all foundations, knows this better than anyone and this is very, very small step to get some more girls back into coding and sharing that experience with others.
Voidkom 13y ago
Females as a noun is used to refer to lower animals, I believe you mean women.
- archon 13y ago
  I referred to myself as male, not as a man, in the same way I referred to females rather than women. It's pretty obvious I wasn't using it in a demeaning way, unless I was also demeaning myself.
  - michh 13y ago
    It's not as commonly used to demean men, so that's not an excuse. Besides, you're not a Ferengi. Stop talking like you are.
- bdg 13y ago
  Source? Right now that's just reading like a baseless claim and it sounds ridiculous to me that "females" is derogatory. I've never heard of such a claim before in my entire life.
  - rdouble 13y ago
    Pretty much only creeps refer to women as females.
    - theorique 13y ago
      [citation needed]
      - rdouble 13y ago
        Ask your mom or sister what they think.
        theorique 13y ago
        Well, if someone writes/says "males and females" or "men and women" it sounds perfectly normal. If someone writes/says "men and females" or "women and males" it sounds weird.
theorique 13y ago
Agreed. The open-source world is famously bare knuckled, from the top down. When your standard bearers are the famously freaky rms, or the famously acerbic Linus, the tone set tends to be rather concerned with "truth" and absolutely unconcerned with "feelings". Not making this right or wrong. Just saying.
SoftwareMaven 13y ago
I had the same initial reaction (and came to post something similar), but I think I was wrong. It's not that it doesn't happen to men, because it absolutely does, but I think that men, in general, won't understand the emotional impact being give "I'm just being honest in the most prickish way possible" advice might have on a woman. This is not to imply that they are dainty creatures that must be protected, but rather that the way they learn and the influence of that environment is very much different than it is for men. I applaud github for taking this step, but I would applaud them more for giving it to everybody. Then it isn't about whether a woman needs a "safe place", but whether somebody new to programming needs a safe place. And that would be better for everybody.
needacig 13y ago
http://xkcd.com/385/ http://xkcd.com/385/
bjustin 13y ago
Supposing that this problem does affect men and women alike, there is still good reason for GitHub to target one group and not the other. The deck is stacked against women due to sexism, e.g. kitchen jokes; this will take time to end. In the mean time, GitHub can mitigate other pain points to make life as a female programmer easier.

by archon 13y ago

marquis 13y ago

For what it's worth, you'd be completely welcome as far as I'm (as a female) concerned. Women don't want to just hang out with women but this is an opportunity for us to get our feet wet in the OS community. As soon as a project is underway with pride, it will become a public repo and I hope you can seek out those communities and work alongside. I just watched The Color Purple last night. It rings true in me because it's not that people aren't free - it's the constant, constant underlying of fear from all sides. If you have fear as a man then women don't want that either - you should be proud and comfortable as only fear begets fear.

steveklabnik 13y ago

> I find it difficult to accept the premise that this is a female-only problem. It doesn't need to be a woman-only problem. It just needs to affect women disproportionately. Scratch that, it doesn't need to be _anything_. Giving free repos to _anyone_ does no harm to anyone who's not getting them, so the only thing this does is help a group of people. Now, you may argue that GitHub should be helping a specific group of people over another one, but they've chosen to help who they've chosen to help.

archon 13y ago
Yeah, I could have worded my objection better. I'm not doubting that the rather brutal nature of OSS is a problem for both men and women. I'm just skeptical that it affects women disproportionately. If you say "getting your code ripped to shreds in public sucks," I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. If you say "getting your code ripped to shreds in public as a woman sucks more," that's where I get skeptical. And if that's the case, why is it a bigger problem for women? Note that I'm not arguing against GitHub giving private repos to whomever they please. They can sponsor who they like. I was just looking for some explanation of that "women are more affected by this than men" claim.
- marquis 13y ago
  Here's a good reason: your entire comment is judgmental and assuming. It's not about hearing "hey, good job girl! Have a cookie!" It's about not hearing "your code is badly formatted, didn't you go to CS school?" instead of "that was a good refactor there, but you'll find it easier to read and share if you indent". Women have just grown up in different kind of group dynamics - and while women can be horribly nasty to each other in artificial groups, it's usually not the case when they choose to work together independently.
  - pifflesnort 13y ago
    To quote another story on the front page: ... that’s what happens when we hold events for women in IT when there aren’t that many women in this industry – we tend to broaden the definition of women in IT. The software industry exists to write software, and ideally it's good software. We're not here to engender happy feelings about bad code. If you're worried about immature people non-constructively mocking your code, then the solution is to realize that those people are unlikely to be particularly great developers themselves, and aren't worth paying attention to. Any sufficiently experienced and mature developer ought to know better than to throw stones from the glass house of their own imperfection. It's better to join or create a welcoming community of experts, than trying to create a coddling safe-space where equally inexperienced people can provide each other with congratulatory pats on the back.
    - marquis 13y ago
      There are an estimated 9-12% women in the field of programming. Are you saying that 90% of the female population has no balls? Or is it more likely that due the systemic method of education, girls don't get interested in programming because by the time they are taught it, the boys are in the computer lab making a ruckus and they'd rather go socialize elsewhere. I speak with teachers at primary schools who get girls as young as 9 to enter robotics competitions. I mentor young programmers to stay enthused, get through their teen years (more often than not, not programming because of socialization aspect) and pick it up again in their later teens when being alone is fine again. And now the IRC channels and open source communities are solely male and there seems no way in. Ada, of all foundations, knows this better than anyone and this is very, very small step to get some more girls back into coding and sharing that experience with others.

Voidkom 13y ago

Females as a noun is used to refer to lower animals, I believe you mean women.

archon 13y ago
I referred to myself as male, not as a man, in the same way I referred to females rather than women. It's pretty obvious I wasn't using it in a demeaning way, unless I was also demeaning myself.
- michh 13y ago
  It's not as commonly used to demean men, so that's not an excuse. Besides, you're not a Ferengi. Stop talking like you are.
bdg 13y ago
Source? Right now that's just reading like a baseless claim and it sounds ridiculous to me that "females" is derogatory. I've never heard of such a claim before in my entire life.
- rdouble 13y ago
  Pretty much only creeps refer to women as females.
  - theorique 13y ago
    [citation needed]
    - rdouble 13y ago
      Ask your mom or sister what they think.
      - theorique 13y ago
        Well, if someone writes/says "males and females" or "men and women" it sounds perfectly normal. If someone writes/says "men and females" or "women and males" it sounds weird.

theorique 13y ago

Agreed. The open-source world is famously bare knuckled, from the top down. When your standard bearers are the famously freaky rms, or the famously acerbic Linus, the tone set tends to be rather concerned with "truth" and absolutely unconcerned with "feelings". Not making this right or wrong. Just saying.

SoftwareMaven 13y ago

I had the same initial reaction (and came to post something similar), but I think I was wrong. It's not that it doesn't happen to men, because it absolutely does, but I think that men, in general, won't understand the emotional impact being give "I'm just being honest in the most prickish way possible" advice might have on a woman. This is not to imply that they are dainty creatures that must be protected, but rather that the way they learn and the influence of that environment is very much different than it is for men. I applaud github for taking this step, but I would applaud them more for giving it to everybody. Then it isn't about whether a woman needs a "safe place", but whether somebody new to programming needs a safe place. And that would be better for everybody.

needacig 13y ago

http://xkcd.com/385/ http://xkcd.com/385/

bjustin 13y ago

Supposing that this problem does affect men and women alike, there is still good reason for GitHub to target one group and not the other. The deck is stacked against women due to sexism, e.g. kitchen jokes; this will take time to end. In the mean time, GitHub can mitigate other pain points to make life as a female programmer easier.