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But it's trivially true that any "mental" state can at least be modulated by brain chemistry. Unless you posit some kind of free-floating mind that operates mag

by mjn 14y ago

But it's trivially true that any "mental" state can at least be modulated by brain chemistry. Unless you posit some kind of free-floating mind that operates magically, all mental states supervene on physical, biological processes, whether we're talking about depression or programming ability or personality or food preferences.

kbutler 14y ago
Not every computer problem is a hardware problem, even though the software is running on some hardware. Whether the "mind" is emergent or external, it is not particularly useful to ignore it. Brain injuries and hormonal problems are hardware. Post-traumatic stress disorder is a database problem. Illogic and a tendency to over-simplify or rely on metaphors are software bugs. grin Of course, the software and database are built in self-modifying firmware, so physical and mental issues do interact in interesting ways.
- mjn 14y ago
  I agree with that as well. My point was the more limited one that showing "when I poke at the hardware the observed behavior changes" isn't particularly surprising, or on its own evidence of a uniquely "hardware" etiology for the behavior, since any behavior can be modulated by poking at the hardware, if you figure out exactly how to poke. In other words, it does successfully show that the behavior is "hardware-mediated", but then all behavior is hardware-mediated.
- lutusp 14y ago
  > Whether the "mind" is emergent or external, it is not particularly useful to ignore it. Certainly. But psychology's track record in identifying and "treating" mental illnesses is such that many are now looking toward neuroscience for (what they hope will be) more effective methods. So I agree that ignoring the "mind" is unwise, but on the other hand, I don't think it should be given the status of a physical organ or assume (as many psychologists do) that it can lead to empirical science.
- dragonwriter 14y ago
  > Not every computer problem is a hardware problem, even though the software is running on some hardware. Well, there is a level on which it is, in that "software" is just hardware writ small. That is, all software that exists and actually runs on a computer exists in the form of physical configuration of states of matter, not as some non-physical entity. This was obvious in the case of some early computers where "programs" were macroscopic wiring configurations, but it is no less true of modern computers. The artificial distinction between hardware and software can be a very useful tool in thinking about computer issues, but it isn't really true in the fundamental sense.

by mjn 14y ago

kbutler 14y ago

Not every computer problem is a hardware problem, even though the software is running on some hardware. Whether the "mind" is emergent or external, it is not particularly useful to ignore it. Brain injuries and hormonal problems are hardware. Post-traumatic stress disorder is a database problem. Illogic and a tendency to over-simplify or rely on metaphors are software bugs. grin Of course, the software and database are built in self-modifying firmware, so physical and mental issues do interact in interesting ways.

mjn 14y ago
I agree with that as well. My point was the more limited one that showing "when I poke at the hardware the observed behavior changes" isn't particularly surprising, or on its own evidence of a uniquely "hardware" etiology for the behavior, since any behavior can be modulated by poking at the hardware, if you figure out exactly how to poke. In other words, it does successfully show that the behavior is "hardware-mediated", but then all behavior is hardware-mediated.
lutusp 14y ago
> Whether the "mind" is emergent or external, it is not particularly useful to ignore it. Certainly. But psychology's track record in identifying and "treating" mental illnesses is such that many are now looking toward neuroscience for (what they hope will be) more effective methods. So I agree that ignoring the "mind" is unwise, but on the other hand, I don't think it should be given the status of a physical organ or assume (as many psychologists do) that it can lead to empirical science.
dragonwriter 14y ago
> Not every computer problem is a hardware problem, even though the software is running on some hardware. Well, there is a level on which it is, in that "software" is just hardware writ small. That is, all software that exists and actually runs on a computer exists in the form of physical configuration of states of matter, not as some non-physical entity. This was obvious in the case of some early computers where "programs" were macroscopic wiring configurations, but it is no less true of modern computers. The artificial distinction between hardware and software can be a very useful tool in thinking about computer issues, but it isn't really true in the fundamental sense.