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I see plenty of insightful comments here but no one acknowledging the conclusion. >It’s funny because the evening started out with a lady giving a speech about

by s_baby 13y ago

I see plenty of insightful comments here but no one acknowledging the conclusion. >It’s funny because the evening started out with a lady giving a speech about how the IT industry is alienating women. But for some girls, it feels like women are alienating the girls who want to be in IT. How many of these articles/talks put the impetus on changing women alienating women from tech? How likely are you to see some twitter post about girls like this acting "not cool" even though it's a widespread problem? Feminist discourse is usually 1 dimensional. More often than not it's only interested in black and white narratives where women are victims and men are perpetrators. In the few cases where other women are shown as the problem they are framed as victims of patriarchal socialization not responsible for their behavior.

eightpersimmons 13y ago
Absolutely - women sometimes internalize and participate in misogynistic and cruel behavior, and it can be hard to talk about. I've seen this happen with the "fake geek girl" phenomenon - some women who feel that they are legitimate parts of the community participate in this kind of destructive policing because they've bought into the cultural misogyny and are often rewarded and have their status reinforced in their community. On a much more damaging level, this happens with slut-shaming and sexual policing. One of the major factors in the recent suicides of teen rape victims was the rejection and shaming by their female peers.
- s_baby 13y ago
  >Absolutely - women sometimes internalize and participate in misogynistic and cruel behavior, and it can be hard to talk about. I think that's an understatement to say it only sometimes happens. From what I gather it's a part of almost every woman's life. Based on anecdotal data, while men are often a source of unintentional systematic sexism women are the more likely source of intentional malicious misogyny.
- philwelch 13y ago
  Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? When women bully other women, it's because they're agents of the patriarchy?
  - shardling 13y ago
    It doesn't sound ridiculous to me; perhaps you have a different conception about what the word patriarchy means in this context?
  - eightpersimmons 13y ago
    I'm honestly not sure what seems ridiculous to you. In these instances, the female bullies are acting out misogynistic discourses. Can you clarify what your sticking point is?
    - philwelch 13y ago
      And what do you call it when boys bully each other to enforce arbitrary social norms? Because I don't see a substantial difference between the two cases.
      - shardling 13y ago
        If you accept that our society suppresses women, it's pretty obvious what the difference is. One type of behavior directly reinforces the status quo, the other doesn't.[1] And if you want to talk about societal problems, that's pretty bloody important! Yeah, both types of bullying feel just as shitty to the individual, but the broader ramifications are definitely different. Nothing is isolated. If you disagree with the fundamental premise (society is sexist) that's a whole other issue, but you should be at least able to see why others see a distinction. 1. Keeping in mind that you seem to want to compare arbitrary bullying to the more specific type persimmons references.
        philwelch 13y ago
        It still doesn't follow from the premise that "society suppresses women to the benefit of men" that "any time an individual woman is suppressed, it is to the benefit of men". How do men even benefit from social taboos enforced my women against other women being geeky, or for that matter, slutty? That's probably the opposite of what would benefit men. Society is more complicated than that. There are more forces swirling around than patriarchy. Any insular group will eventually enforce arbitrary social norms on each other, and since people tend to socialize with those of the same sex, both genders form insular groups in our society.
pessimizer 13y ago
>women are [..] framed as victims of patriarchal socialization not responsible for their behavior What conclusion did you read into the OP that framed the judgmental girls as themselves responsible for the culture that they were brought up in? Saying that they play a role in perpetuating the culture isn't the same as saying that they are responsible for it.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
neya 13y ago
This should be the top-voted comment. Well said!
- Androsynth 13y ago
  i agree. the article is building up to the conclusion, not some stupid off-hand reference to star wars. Sometimes HN fills up with too many me-too comments.
vacri 13y ago
Feminist discourse is usually 1 dimensional. No, it's not. It really, really isn't. You only notice the stuff that mentions female-victim/male-perp because you don't really care enough about the issue to notice anything further. There is heaps of feminist discourse on women judging women and limiting their options by doing so, the topic of this article. And there are plenty of complex narratives rather than black and white reasoning.
- irremediable 13y ago
  A very good comment that succinctly describes why so many of us unfairly dismiss feminism.
  - roguecoder 13y ago
    Because you don't bother engaging with anything other than strawmen? Any time you think something is 1-dimensional, chances are good you are only seeing a few small pieces of the world. Often those pieces are the ones that people in the mainstream find easiest to mock. Ignorance isn't a problem, but making assumptions based on ignorance is.
- s_baby 13y ago
  A) Those edge cases you speak of are not part of the dominant discourse. When woman on woman sexism is approached in the dominant discourse it's in the form of... >In the few cases where other women are shown as the problem they are framed as victims of patriarchal socialization not responsible for their behavior. B) You're making some big assumptions about my awareness of sociology.
  - detcader 13y ago
    A) Dominant discourse as in the occasional Jezebel article you see shared on FB or actual gender and sexuality studies? What is your experience with the latter? B) You're not giving much to address those assumptions.
    - 13y ago
ahoyhere 13y ago
How is "Those girls don't have interests like mine!" alienating anyone?

by s_baby 13y ago

eightpersimmons 13y ago

Absolutely - women sometimes internalize and participate in misogynistic and cruel behavior, and it can be hard to talk about. I've seen this happen with the "fake geek girl" phenomenon - some women who feel that they are legitimate parts of the community participate in this kind of destructive policing because they've bought into the cultural misogyny and are often rewarded and have their status reinforced in their community. On a much more damaging level, this happens with slut-shaming and sexual policing. One of the major factors in the recent suicides of teen rape victims was the rejection and shaming by their female peers.

s_baby 13y ago
>Absolutely - women sometimes internalize and participate in misogynistic and cruel behavior, and it can be hard to talk about. I think that's an understatement to say it only sometimes happens. From what I gather it's a part of almost every woman's life. Based on anecdotal data, while men are often a source of unintentional systematic sexism women are the more likely source of intentional malicious misogyny.
philwelch 13y ago
Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? When women bully other women, it's because they're agents of the patriarchy?
- shardling 13y ago
  It doesn't sound ridiculous to me; perhaps you have a different conception about what the word patriarchy means in this context?
- eightpersimmons 13y ago
  I'm honestly not sure what seems ridiculous to you. In these instances, the female bullies are acting out misogynistic discourses. Can you clarify what your sticking point is?
  - philwelch 13y ago
    And what do you call it when boys bully each other to enforce arbitrary social norms? Because I don't see a substantial difference between the two cases.
    - shardling 13y ago
      If you accept that our society suppresses women, it's pretty obvious what the difference is. One type of behavior directly reinforces the status quo, the other doesn't.[1] And if you want to talk about societal problems, that's pretty bloody important! Yeah, both types of bullying feel just as shitty to the individual, but the broader ramifications are definitely different. Nothing is isolated. If you disagree with the fundamental premise (society is sexist) that's a whole other issue, but you should be at least able to see why others see a distinction. 1. Keeping in mind that you seem to want to compare arbitrary bullying to the more specific type persimmons references.
      - philwelch 13y ago
        It still doesn't follow from the premise that "society suppresses women to the benefit of men" that "any time an individual woman is suppressed, it is to the benefit of men". How do men even benefit from social taboos enforced my women against other women being geeky, or for that matter, slutty? That's probably the opposite of what would benefit men. Society is more complicated than that. There are more forces swirling around than patriarchy. Any insular group will eventually enforce arbitrary social norms on each other, and since people tend to socialize with those of the same sex, both genders form insular groups in our society.

pessimizer 13y ago

>women are [..] framed as victims of patriarchal socialization not responsible for their behavior What conclusion did you read into the OP that framed the judgmental girls as themselves responsible for the culture that they were brought up in? Saying that they play a role in perpetuating the culture isn't the same as saying that they are responsible for it.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

neya 13y ago

This should be the top-voted comment. Well said!

Androsynth 13y ago
i agree. the article is building up to the conclusion, not some stupid off-hand reference to star wars. Sometimes HN fills up with too many me-too comments.

vacri 13y ago

Feminist discourse is usually 1 dimensional. No, it's not. It really, really isn't. You only notice the stuff that mentions female-victim/male-perp because you don't really care enough about the issue to notice anything further. There is heaps of feminist discourse on women judging women and limiting their options by doing so, the topic of this article. And there are plenty of complex narratives rather than black and white reasoning.

irremediable 13y ago
A very good comment that succinctly describes why so many of us unfairly dismiss feminism.
- roguecoder 13y ago
  Because you don't bother engaging with anything other than strawmen? Any time you think something is 1-dimensional, chances are good you are only seeing a few small pieces of the world. Often those pieces are the ones that people in the mainstream find easiest to mock. Ignorance isn't a problem, but making assumptions based on ignorance is.
s_baby 13y ago
A) Those edge cases you speak of are not part of the dominant discourse. When woman on woman sexism is approached in the dominant discourse it's in the form of... >In the few cases where other women are shown as the problem they are framed as victims of patriarchal socialization not responsible for their behavior. B) You're making some big assumptions about my awareness of sociology.
- detcader 13y ago
  A) Dominant discourse as in the occasional Jezebel article you see shared on FB or actual gender and sexuality studies? What is your experience with the latter? B) You're not giving much to address those assumptions.
  - 13y ago

ahoyhere 13y ago

How is "Those girls don't have interests like mine!" alienating anyone?