5 ms·

Notice some contradictions here? Only ones that are only visible to hardcore libertarians.

oleganza 14y ago
So you admit there are logical contradictions, just some people don't see them?
snitko 14y ago
Of course, because instead of trying to understand libertarian arguments it's easier to say "oh, but they're just bananas". There is not an objective reason in the world to regulate taxi-services. None.
- lotsofcows 14y ago
  You're right of course, quality, safety and professionalism are all subjective...
  - snitko 14y ago
    Actually, they are. But, more importantly, you are trying to decide for other people what's good for them. Some people might prefer a less safe ride with a less professional driver for less money. Now, I don't see anything wrong with informing people that private cabs might not be as safe, however the decision to use one should lie with the customer, not with the government.
    - Nursie 14y ago
      How does the average person know if the cab they're getting into is in good mechanical order? What you propose results in a race to the bottom, where cars and drivers are dangerous but deceptive about it. You create incentives to lie.
      - snitko 14y ago
        How does an average person knows which restaurant to go, which shoes to buy, which ISP to connect to internet through, which car to buy, which computer to use and which city to live in?
        Nursie 14y ago
        Well, here in the UK, if they want to know about food safety then the star rating from the government mandated hygiene check is posted on the door to the premises, letting the consumer know the cleanliness of the kitchen and the safety of food preparation practices. This, like car safety ratings, is something rather hard to judge by a cursory look around the place. We also consider these two things important enough for regulation as they can result in illness, injury or death. Shoes, well, if your shoes fall apart very quickly then you have a statutory right to a refund, rather than a libertarian 'right' to bitch about it and hope to damage the business. Other things are regulated similarly. It's not a question of someone choosing for you, it's a question of society coming up with standards and regulations to take the danger of unscrupulous or negligent merchants out of the picture.
- Nursie 14y ago
  Unregistered and unregulated minicabs in London resulted in a lot of raped girls. This seems like a good reason for regulation to me.
  - snitko 14y ago
    So if government was really concerned with its citizens well-being, maybe they should have simply launched a campaign informing people that it might be dangerous to take private cabs. Then private cabs industry would respond by introducing new business practices that would ensure more safety. Your reply suggests that young women have no brains of their own and should rely on government patronage solely to avoid potentially dangerous situations.
    - mjn 14y ago
      The "free market" doesn't work in the idealized way you think it does, and does not react in a way that solves such problems. The Scandinavian social-democratic model, by contrast, does work. Very few Scandinavians want to trade it in for the US model, and certainly not some kind of Tea-Party-sounding paranoia about Big Government like this press release oozes.
      - snitko 14y ago
        People always say the chant "free market doesn't work" without giving any explanation or examples. Moreover, any example should be carefully dissected and analyzed, which rarely happens. Even if people come up with examples, it's usually followed by "and this is why free market doesn't work".
        Nursie 14y ago
        The free market did not solve the problem of rapes, robberies and assaults in London's unregulated private late-night taxi business. No, it didn't. Now, you can argue that the people getting into those cabs should have known better, and that morally you ought to have the right to run one of these services. Law is the rest of us telling you where you can stick your absolutist morality while we find a nice balance that allows people to live the best they can with minimal restrictions.
- amalcon 14y ago
  I love libertarian logic sometimes. Taxi regulation must have come about because mustache-twirling government goons said "This taxi thing is working too well; let's ruin it with some regulation!"
  - oleganza 14y ago
    Government is just an abstraction. There were early taxi companies that lobbied for a monopoly for themselves. They asked for laws to establish a hard limit on number of licenses available. Then, they cashed out nicely because supply of taxis was limited with police force, but demand was growing. Later taxi drivers just had to buy the permit and now they are also interested in keeping the existing laws (or they lose a lot of money). There is no magic at all, pure economics + violent intervention via police.
    - kalleboo 14y ago
      Except none of this is true in this case - Sweden. The only regulation in place is consumer protection (driver's licenses, reputable businesses, regulated taximeter, comparison prices posted on the cars). There's nothing protecting driver's interests.
      - LanceH 14y ago
        So variable pricing is regulated out of market is what you're saying.
        kalleboo 14y ago
        What do you mean by variable pricing. Haggling? Having the costs vary by time is fine as long as it's detailed on the pricing sticker. Edit: here are the details http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Vag/Yrkestrafik/Taxi/Prisinformation-/ http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Vag/Yrkestrafik/Taxi/Prisin... Uber could use this standard exclusion: "Tariffs by written agreement exclusively for a particular customer or passenger category do not have to be reported in the price data." edit2: I'm reading the law now. There are massive loopholes all over this thing. Uber could easily implement their standard business model within this framework if they'd just comply with a few things http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Global/Regler/TSFS_svenska/TSFS%202010/TSFS%202010-192.pdf http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Global/Regler/TSFS_svenska/...

So you admit there are logical contradictions, just some people don't see them?

Of course, because instead of trying to understand libertarian arguments it's easier to say "oh, but they're just bananas". There is not an objective reason in the world to regulate taxi-services. None.

lotsofcows 14y ago
You're right of course, quality, safety and professionalism are all subjective...
- snitko 14y ago
  Actually, they are. But, more importantly, you are trying to decide for other people what's good for them. Some people might prefer a less safe ride with a less professional driver for less money. Now, I don't see anything wrong with informing people that private cabs might not be as safe, however the decision to use one should lie with the customer, not with the government.
  - Nursie 14y ago
    How does the average person know if the cab they're getting into is in good mechanical order? What you propose results in a race to the bottom, where cars and drivers are dangerous but deceptive about it. You create incentives to lie.
    - snitko 14y ago
      How does an average person knows which restaurant to go, which shoes to buy, which ISP to connect to internet through, which car to buy, which computer to use and which city to live in?
      - Nursie 14y ago
        Well, here in the UK, if they want to know about food safety then the star rating from the government mandated hygiene check is posted on the door to the premises, letting the consumer know the cleanliness of the kitchen and the safety of food preparation practices. This, like car safety ratings, is something rather hard to judge by a cursory look around the place. We also consider these two things important enough for regulation as they can result in illness, injury or death. Shoes, well, if your shoes fall apart very quickly then you have a statutory right to a refund, rather than a libertarian 'right' to bitch about it and hope to damage the business. Other things are regulated similarly. It's not a question of someone choosing for you, it's a question of society coming up with standards and regulations to take the danger of unscrupulous or negligent merchants out of the picture.
Nursie 14y ago
Unregistered and unregulated minicabs in London resulted in a lot of raped girls. This seems like a good reason for regulation to me.
- snitko 14y ago
  So if government was really concerned with its citizens well-being, maybe they should have simply launched a campaign informing people that it might be dangerous to take private cabs. Then private cabs industry would respond by introducing new business practices that would ensure more safety. Your reply suggests that young women have no brains of their own and should rely on government patronage solely to avoid potentially dangerous situations.
  - mjn 14y ago
    The "free market" doesn't work in the idealized way you think it does, and does not react in a way that solves such problems. The Scandinavian social-democratic model, by contrast, does work. Very few Scandinavians want to trade it in for the US model, and certainly not some kind of Tea-Party-sounding paranoia about Big Government like this press release oozes.
    - snitko 14y ago
      People always say the chant "free market doesn't work" without giving any explanation or examples. Moreover, any example should be carefully dissected and analyzed, which rarely happens. Even if people come up with examples, it's usually followed by "and this is why free market doesn't work".
      - Nursie 14y ago
        The free market did not solve the problem of rapes, robberies and assaults in London's unregulated private late-night taxi business. No, it didn't. Now, you can argue that the people getting into those cabs should have known better, and that morally you ought to have the right to run one of these services. Law is the rest of us telling you where you can stick your absolutist morality while we find a nice balance that allows people to live the best they can with minimal restrictions.
amalcon 14y ago
I love libertarian logic sometimes. Taxi regulation must have come about because mustache-twirling government goons said "This taxi thing is working too well; let's ruin it with some regulation!"
- oleganza 14y ago
  Government is just an abstraction. There were early taxi companies that lobbied for a monopoly for themselves. They asked for laws to establish a hard limit on number of licenses available. Then, they cashed out nicely because supply of taxis was limited with police force, but demand was growing. Later taxi drivers just had to buy the permit and now they are also interested in keeping the existing laws (or they lose a lot of money). There is no magic at all, pure economics + violent intervention via police.
  - kalleboo 14y ago
    Except none of this is true in this case - Sweden. The only regulation in place is consumer protection (driver's licenses, reputable businesses, regulated taximeter, comparison prices posted on the cars). There's nothing protecting driver's interests.
    - LanceH 14y ago
      So variable pricing is regulated out of market is what you're saying.
      - kalleboo 14y ago
        What do you mean by variable pricing. Haggling? Having the costs vary by time is fine as long as it's detailed on the pricing sticker. Edit: here are the details http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Vag/Yrkestrafik/Taxi/Prisinformation-/ http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Vag/Yrkestrafik/Taxi/Prisin... Uber could use this standard exclusion: "Tariffs by written agreement exclusively for a particular customer or passenger category do not have to be reported in the price data." edit2: I'm reading the law now. There are massive loopholes all over this thing. Uber could easily implement their standard business model within this framework if they'd just comply with a few things http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Global/Regler/TSFS_svenska/TSFS%202010/TSFS%202010-192.pdf http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Global/Regler/TSFS_svenska/...