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Some quotes from the article: "The market is unregulated, meaning that you can set any price for your services." "You can safely say that there’s healthy comp

Some quotes from the article: "The market is unregulated, meaning that you can set any price for your services." "You can safely say that there’s healthy competition on the market." "You do need a permit to have a taxi service." "The fact is that Uber are asking for an exemption to be able to compete on unfair grounds" Notice some contradictions here? Author claims that market is unregulated and competition is fair, but then admits there is regulation and legal requirements (that cost real money). If you want to make a nice private taxi service with 2x lower prices, you cannot because you have to pay local government for all licenses and whatever taximeter they provide you, not the one you design for your own company and your customers' safety. When talking about "unfair advantage", author makes presupposition that existing regulations and licensing are "fair". Well, that needs to be proven. Saying "somebody voted for it in a democracy" is not a proof, sorry. Try that with a scientific study: "scientists voted that P != NP with 58% majority".

ubersync 14y ago
>whatever taximeter they provide you The author mentions that Uber could have tried to get their App approved as a taximeter, but they did not even try. > Author claims that market is unregulated and competition is fair, but then admits there is regulation Getting a license is not a "regulation". What the author means is, that the prices are not regulated and the taxis are free to charge whatever they want. So Uber can offer their service at any price, without being forced to a minimum or a maximum.
effn 14y ago
> you cannot because you have to pay local government for all licenses and whatever taximeter they provide you, not the one you design for your own company and your customers' safety. The reason you can't provide a service with 2x lower prices is that you would make a huge loss doing that, and it has nothing to do with regulations. You are allowed to design your own taximeters btw. And the regulation is "fair" in the sense that it applies equally to all companies (note that Uber is trying to get exepmtion from a rule that their competitors comply with).
claudius 14y ago
The market is unregulated in that each driver is free to set their price, as compared to other places where there is a fixed, state-mandated price per kilometer. The fact that you need a permit does not constitute regulation in any sensible sense (unless you call everything regulation), since you need a permit for basically everything. The fact that you need a certified taximeter is customer protection – given that Uber charges per kilometer and time unit, I don’t see why they oppose a certified taximeter. Similarly, you cannot make a nice private business selling X, because you have to pay income tax and VAT.
Retric 14y ago
Fair says nothing about reasonable just applying the same rules to everyone. Forcing a school bake sale to collect sales taxes is "Fair" because it's the same rules a bakery operates under.
- oleganza 14y ago
  It's good you mentioned "same rules to everyone". Do you know that anyone on government payroll does not pay any income taxes? (Even if they do nominally, their salary is paid from everyone else's tax anyway, so it's just an accounting trick.) So the income tax is not an example of "same rules to everyone". Same goes for certification. There are people who get the right to define certification rules and use armed police force to make you comply, and there are people who cannot do that. Whenever you have a democratic vote and 60 persons outvote 40, a new "fair" rule is applicable to everyone, however 60 people are okay with it and 40 were against. In other words, 60 people think it is fair to force 40 persons just because the numbers look good. Is it an example of the rule that applies fairly to everyone?
  - Retric 14y ago
    It's not an accounting trick it keeps budgets honest. Otherwise outsourcing would be at a huge disadvantage even if they also get that money back. Also the 60:40 vote issue this is why we use a representative democracy backed up with a constitution. It's harder to stay in office when you regularly piss off large voting blocks. A politician will often consider more than just what percentage of the population would vote for something but how much people on both sides of a issue care about it.
    - oleganza 14y ago
      Wait, what? There is a group of people outside government that produce something that did not exist yesterday. Through taxation people called "government" are taking part of that product. (I'm not saying if it's good or bad, it's just what it is.) Then they use a lot of accounting here and there, but it does not change the fact that in the net some people had some property transferred from others to them in a non-market fashion (not in direct exchange for some other product, but because it's a "rule"). In my view it means that "taxation" is not applied equally to everyone. So it cannot be an example of a "fair" rule that you defined earlier. Of course, we may talk whether redistribution of wealth is "good for society" or not, but that's outside the question of "universality of the fair rule". Am I wrong about that?
oleganza 14y ago
I don't know about Stockholm, but in US and France taxi drivers must buy a taxi license for many thousands of dollars/euros that effectively allows them be a part of a monopoly. The price for the license is market-defined because there is a limited number of licenses and few restrictions on trading them. But the interesting point is that licenses were initially created many years ago by some taxi mafia and lobbied to be enforced by police. Now, put aside "fairness" issues, just imagine if someone comes up with Uber or similar service to work around these licensing requirements. And at the same time provides superior service. They will be able to ask lower prices, which will endanger every taxi driver who's invested already to be a part of a monopoly. Now imagine that something like Uber moves to bitcoins and become almost anonymous. You won't be able to shutdown the central organisation - it's outside the country and has no bank account. You'll have to fight with individual "illegal" taxi drivers that use the system. But how would you prove that they get paid? There are no credit cards or cash. The person who gets in the car only tells the driver a short pin code to authenticate himself. Or says nothing at all. The driver just gives a friendly lift. Suddenly no one needs taxis and every taxi driver has lost tens of thousands of dollars invested in his license and can do nothing about it. Customers win, other drivers win, mafia loses. Is it fair? Is in unfair? If you cannot avoid this outcome, does it really matter?
- Nursie 14y ago
  Completely unregulated and unregistered cab services have a history of very bad things happening in them in the UK. Customers do not win, customers get assaulted and raped.
  - oleganza 14y ago
    I've heard from my San Francisco friends that Uber is superior in every way to yellow taxis. And main reason is that it's very easy to rate drivers and you don't pay them directly.
    - Nursie 14y ago
      That's fine, I'm just pointing out that dropping any/all regulation doesn't immediately make everything sunshine and roses, there are very real problems that regulation and registration seek to address. It's not always (or not only) down to cartels and corruption.
Confusion 14y ago
Notice some contradictions here? Only ones that are only visible to hardcore libertarians.
- oleganza 14y ago
  So you admit there are logical contradictions, just some people don't see them?
- snitko 14y ago
  Of course, because instead of trying to understand libertarian arguments it's easier to say "oh, but they're just bananas". There is not an objective reason in the world to regulate taxi-services. None.
  - lotsofcows 14y ago
    You're right of course, quality, safety and professionalism are all subjective...
    - snitko 14y ago
      Actually, they are. But, more importantly, you are trying to decide for other people what's good for them. Some people might prefer a less safe ride with a less professional driver for less money. Now, I don't see anything wrong with informing people that private cabs might not be as safe, however the decision to use one should lie with the customer, not with the government.
      - Nursie 14y ago
        How does the average person know if the cab they're getting into is in good mechanical order? What you propose results in a race to the bottom, where cars and drivers are dangerous but deceptive about it. You create incentives to lie.
        snitko 14y ago
srisa 14y ago
"Regulation and legal requirements" are for running the taxi service. "Market is unregulated" is for the fares that can be charged by a taxi service. If "existing regulations and licensing" are unfair, better rope in every one and ask for changing those regulations; asking for exemption from the rules that everyone else has to comply with is not fair either.
ankitml 14y ago
If the country is sweden and the company is american. Default value would be "laws are fair and company has some issues"
Uchikoma 14y ago
A lot of markets are "regulated", e.g. the food market, there is a lot of thing you can't mix into food (even in the US). Though no one would call this market "regulated".
kalleboo 14y ago
"Unregulated" in the terms of a taxi market means that there are no price regulations and no limitations on the number of cars. The licenses needed are minimal compared to any other taxi market: * Driver's need a more stringent driver's license ($150) * Business owners need to prove they're running a serious business by passing a test and showing proof of enough capital to run the business. This application required an administrative fee of under $500. This is absolutely nothing compared to the 10's or 100's of thousands of dollars needed in other countries (where it's often impossible since their numbers are limited). These requirements stem from the dangers of unprofessional drivers - unregulated taxi drivers in Sweden have been linked to robberies and rape of passengers. It doesn't in any way create a taxi monopoly. My mom could start a taxi business in Sweden. The regulation is mainly pure consumer protection. The same kind of regulation that covers supermarkets: approved measurement devices (approved taximeter, same requirement as approved weights), upfront about prices (sticker on the window, same as having proper pricing on your shelves).
Uchikoma 14y ago
You also need a certificate to open a restaurant in most places. You would call the restaurant market "regulated"?

ubersync 14y ago

>whatever taximeter they provide you The author mentions that Uber could have tried to get their App approved as a taximeter, but they did not even try. > Author claims that market is unregulated and competition is fair, but then admits there is regulation Getting a license is not a "regulation". What the author means is, that the prices are not regulated and the taxis are free to charge whatever they want. So Uber can offer their service at any price, without being forced to a minimum or a maximum.

effn 14y ago

> you cannot because you have to pay local government for all licenses and whatever taximeter they provide you, not the one you design for your own company and your customers' safety. The reason you can't provide a service with 2x lower prices is that you would make a huge loss doing that, and it has nothing to do with regulations. You are allowed to design your own taximeters btw. And the regulation is "fair" in the sense that it applies equally to all companies (note that Uber is trying to get exepmtion from a rule that their competitors comply with).

claudius 14y ago

The market is unregulated in that each driver is free to set their price, as compared to other places where there is a fixed, state-mandated price per kilometer. The fact that you need a permit does not constitute regulation in any sensible sense (unless you call everything regulation), since you need a permit for basically everything. The fact that you need a certified taximeter is customer protection – given that Uber charges per kilometer and time unit, I don’t see why they oppose a certified taximeter. Similarly, you cannot make a nice private business selling X, because you have to pay income tax and VAT.

Retric 14y ago

Fair says nothing about reasonable just applying the same rules to everyone. Forcing a school bake sale to collect sales taxes is "Fair" because it's the same rules a bakery operates under.

oleganza 14y ago
It's good you mentioned "same rules to everyone". Do you know that anyone on government payroll does not pay any income taxes? (Even if they do nominally, their salary is paid from everyone else's tax anyway, so it's just an accounting trick.) So the income tax is not an example of "same rules to everyone". Same goes for certification. There are people who get the right to define certification rules and use armed police force to make you comply, and there are people who cannot do that. Whenever you have a democratic vote and 60 persons outvote 40, a new "fair" rule is applicable to everyone, however 60 people are okay with it and 40 were against. In other words, 60 people think it is fair to force 40 persons just because the numbers look good. Is it an example of the rule that applies fairly to everyone?
- Retric 14y ago
  It's not an accounting trick it keeps budgets honest. Otherwise outsourcing would be at a huge disadvantage even if they also get that money back. Also the 60:40 vote issue this is why we use a representative democracy backed up with a constitution. It's harder to stay in office when you regularly piss off large voting blocks. A politician will often consider more than just what percentage of the population would vote for something but how much people on both sides of a issue care about it.
  - oleganza 14y ago
    Wait, what? There is a group of people outside government that produce something that did not exist yesterday. Through taxation people called "government" are taking part of that product. (I'm not saying if it's good or bad, it's just what it is.) Then they use a lot of accounting here and there, but it does not change the fact that in the net some people had some property transferred from others to them in a non-market fashion (not in direct exchange for some other product, but because it's a "rule"). In my view it means that "taxation" is not applied equally to everyone. So it cannot be an example of a "fair" rule that you defined earlier. Of course, we may talk whether redistribution of wealth is "good for society" or not, but that's outside the question of "universality of the fair rule". Am I wrong about that?

oleganza 14y ago

I don't know about Stockholm, but in US and France taxi drivers must buy a taxi license for many thousands of dollars/euros that effectively allows them be a part of a monopoly. The price for the license is market-defined because there is a limited number of licenses and few restrictions on trading them. But the interesting point is that licenses were initially created many years ago by some taxi mafia and lobbied to be enforced by police. Now, put aside "fairness" issues, just imagine if someone comes up with Uber or similar service to work around these licensing requirements. And at the same time provides superior service. They will be able to ask lower prices, which will endanger every taxi driver who's invested already to be a part of a monopoly. Now imagine that something like Uber moves to bitcoins and become almost anonymous. You won't be able to shutdown the central organisation - it's outside the country and has no bank account. You'll have to fight with individual "illegal" taxi drivers that use the system. But how would you prove that they get paid? There are no credit cards or cash. The person who gets in the car only tells the driver a short pin code to authenticate himself. Or says nothing at all. The driver just gives a friendly lift. Suddenly no one needs taxis and every taxi driver has lost tens of thousands of dollars invested in his license and can do nothing about it. Customers win, other drivers win, mafia loses. Is it fair? Is in unfair? If you cannot avoid this outcome, does it really matter?

Nursie 14y ago
Completely unregulated and unregistered cab services have a history of very bad things happening in them in the UK. Customers do not win, customers get assaulted and raped.
- oleganza 14y ago
  I've heard from my San Francisco friends that Uber is superior in every way to yellow taxis. And main reason is that it's very easy to rate drivers and you don't pay them directly.
  - Nursie 14y ago
    That's fine, I'm just pointing out that dropping any/all regulation doesn't immediately make everything sunshine and roses, there are very real problems that regulation and registration seek to address. It's not always (or not only) down to cartels and corruption.

Confusion 14y ago

Notice some contradictions here? Only ones that are only visible to hardcore libertarians.

oleganza 14y ago
So you admit there are logical contradictions, just some people don't see them?
snitko 14y ago
Of course, because instead of trying to understand libertarian arguments it's easier to say "oh, but they're just bananas". There is not an objective reason in the world to regulate taxi-services. None.
- lotsofcows 14y ago
  You're right of course, quality, safety and professionalism are all subjective...
  - snitko 14y ago
    Actually, they are. But, more importantly, you are trying to decide for other people what's good for them. Some people might prefer a less safe ride with a less professional driver for less money. Now, I don't see anything wrong with informing people that private cabs might not be as safe, however the decision to use one should lie with the customer, not with the government.
    - Nursie 14y ago
      How does the average person know if the cab they're getting into is in good mechanical order? What you propose results in a race to the bottom, where cars and drivers are dangerous but deceptive about it. You create incentives to lie.
      - snitko 14y ago

srisa 14y ago

"Regulation and legal requirements" are for running the taxi service. "Market is unregulated" is for the fares that can be charged by a taxi service. If "existing regulations and licensing" are unfair, better rope in every one and ask for changing those regulations; asking for exemption from the rules that everyone else has to comply with is not fair either.

ankitml 14y ago

If the country is sweden and the company is american. Default value would be "laws are fair and company has some issues"

Uchikoma 14y ago

A lot of markets are "regulated", e.g. the food market, there is a lot of thing you can't mix into food (even in the US). Though no one would call this market "regulated".

kalleboo 14y ago

"Unregulated" in the terms of a taxi market means that there are no price regulations and no limitations on the number of cars. The licenses needed are minimal compared to any other taxi market: * Driver's need a more stringent driver's license ($150) * Business owners need to prove they're running a serious business by passing a test and showing proof of enough capital to run the business. This application required an administrative fee of under $500. This is absolutely nothing compared to the 10's or 100's of thousands of dollars needed in other countries (where it's often impossible since their numbers are limited). These requirements stem from the dangers of unprofessional drivers - unregulated taxi drivers in Sweden have been linked to robberies and rape of passengers. It doesn't in any way create a taxi monopoly. My mom could start a taxi business in Sweden. The regulation is mainly pure consumer protection. The same kind of regulation that covers supermarkets: approved measurement devices (approved taximeter, same requirement as approved weights), upfront about prices (sticker on the window, same as having proper pricing on your shelves).

Uchikoma 14y ago

You also need a certificate to open a restaurant in most places. You would call the restaurant market "regulated"?