7 ms·

Lessons In Survival - why elite military forces bounce back faster

89 points by DTrejo 18y ago

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
SapphireSun 18y ago
I wonder how many false positives and false negatives there are for the monotonic heartbeat test. Could they skip putting the recruits through hell, or do they learn enough from it that it would still be worth it?
- Liron 18y ago
  Putting recruits through hell is training, not just a selection task.
- gaius 18y ago
  It's all about unit cohesion. The psychology of it is well-understood. People are afraid of failing so are reluctant to push their limits and expose themselves to criticism from their peers. By putting everyone through an ordeal together, everyone sees everyone else suffering, that barrier is broken down. The benefits of this type of training go way beyond the military.
  - chriskelley 18y ago
    Put me with a perfect stranger and give us 80 minutes on the rugby pitch together and it's mind-blowing how fast a deep friendship can form.
    - gaius 18y ago
      Yeah, strip everyone down to the basics, no pretences, no bullshit, and we're all basically the same. Well, that's not true. There are those who are willing to do this and those that aren't.
    - andyjenn 18y ago
      Not always, although I know where you are coming from. Pretty soon you can find out whether they're someone you can "go over the trenches" with, no matter what size they might look.
    - anamax 18y ago
      Sports both build character and reveal it.
  - dejb 18y ago
    I wonder whether the benefits are for those being trained or those doing the training. It seems to me the greatest trick of waging war is to convince people to put their lives at risk against an enemy that did not originally threaten them. Some people might refer to this phenomena as brain washing.
    - gaius 18y ago
      Cops, paramedics and firefighters all put their lives at risk going into situations that did not originally threaten them. Yet no-one would describe them as "brainwashed".
      - dejb 18y ago
        There is a certain threshold of dangerous and selfless action that defies ordinary logic. In the cases of direct and unambiguous help to others it is called heroism. In cases where the action causes harm to some parties the definition is less clear. In the worst cases it is referred to as terrorism. Either way the readiness to face mortal danger can be used for both good and evil. Whether it represents brainwashing however is a different question.
        greyboy 18y ago
        That makes it sound rather subjective, then.
        Tangurena 18y ago
        Not subjective. It boils down more to feel the fear, but do it anyway. Which is the point of stress innoculation in basic training, police academy, the more advanced stuff of special forces, or even SERE. Grossman's books describe the physiological effects of stress and combat. Some of the responses are also caused by folks not understanding just what has happened to them, and why is their body acting like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival,_Evasion,_Resistance_and_Escape http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival,_Evasion,_Resistance_a... High speed driving tends to drive adrenaline levels way up. Police brutality complaints are much higher in the aftermath of high speed pursuits. Yet the tunnel vision and other responses of that kind of driving also affects non-police drivers. We had an incident here in Denver where an ambulance driver t-boned a light rail train. How the heck could someone not see something that's 15 feet tall and 200 feet long? Adrenaline poisoning will do it to you. And I contend that could have been anyone who did that, as well. It takes "innoculation" to learn how your body behaves in these situations, and to do the "right" thing despite what your body wants to do (which in my case is usually puke and soil myself).
- scott_s 18y ago
  Training is everything. Having a plan in a bad situation makes all the difference.
mstevens 18y ago
I'd be interested to read more about how much of the Special Forces difference they're born with and how much you can train.
- Retric 18y ago
  On the deck, the unconscious sailors are rolled on their sides, and as soon as they revive, an instructor shouts again and again: "Are you gonna quit? Are you gonna quit?" Sailors are given 30 seconds to answer or they're kicked out of the program. A lot their "training" seem designed to weed out those who lack specific innate traits. From what I understand the goal is to cull most people as soon as possible and then train those who remain which suggests they focus on innate talents rather than testing people after they have been trained. Which IMO is a good idea, because you don't know what you are going to face in the real world. PS: You see the same idea with a large high school's football camp. The first few days is all about weeding people out based on physical fitness.
  - chuckm 18y ago
    A lot their "training" seem designed to weed out those who lack specific innate traits I don't think it's entirely about innate traits. There's a lot of training that occurs before going to some these schools. For example, in the Army you're not eligible to 'try out' for Special Forces until you're an E4 grade (not sure about officers), which may take 1.5 - 3 years to achieve, assuming you enlisted as an E1. Even then a lot of guys spend 2-4 months in special training programs before going and some don't pass until their second or third attempt.
    - falsestprophet 18y ago
      O3 or O2 promotable. So, everyone trying out is very experienced.
    - run4yourlives 18y ago
      In other words, they're controlling for knowledge and training gaps. All that remains is pure talent, really.
jcl 18y ago
As I was reading the article, I couldn't help wondering: Why doesn't everyone have the same traits that the special forces people do? Unless there was some huge downside, I'd expect evolutionary pressure to select for them. But it wasn't until the end of the article that it gives a hint of a disadvantage: Unfortunately, this metronomic effect is usually associated with early heart disease and even sudden death. Morgan wonders whether the same thing that makes you really good at surviving under high stress may not translate into excellent heart health when you're 50.
- skmurphy 18y ago
  From an evolutionary standpoint, anything that manifests above 40 has little impact if it gives you better survivability younger. For most of human history you will have already had your children and raised them to independence .
  - defen 18y ago
    Let's not forget the advantage of having a large number of established elder relatives - they can help raise more kids, share resources, etc.
  - reeses 18y ago
    That argument would mean that non-reproducing people, particularly homosexuality (if you believe the "genetics" argument), would have been eliminated by now.
    - skmurphy 18y ago
      Not if they contribute meaningfully to their siblings children's survival. Your argument also assumes that homosexuality is primarily determined by genetics and/or that they didn't father or bear children in spite of their orientation.
      - reeses 18y ago
        The part where I said "non-reproducing people" and "(if you believe the "genetics" argument)" cover what you said. You refute your original argument with your first sentence.
christofd 18y ago
(Btw - this is why i like HN. Trying to understand life, the universe and everything in practical terms.) Hmmm... yes, I wonder how much you can train stress resistance/ resilience and how much is nature-given. I'm probably more of a sensitive type person, but through ongoing training I've got myself to be able to endure lots of pain and stress through willpower (well, it's more like I'm more numb and less receptive than I used to be): doing martial arts since I was 6, resisting groups in social situations and insisting on what I think is right (braking peer pressure), occasionally engaging in physical fights (when I was younger), and again various sports activities like long distance running, skateboarding, mountainbiking, hiking etc. - IMHO it comes down to facing fear and pain on an ongoing basis: NO FEAR. lol. On another note, this is exactly why geeks are not in charge in most corporations. Because they are not in any way as well trained as your average jock to fight back against stress and pain. At least geeks can learn to live with this inherent weakness and be aware of it.

89 points by DTrejo 18y ago

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

I wonder how many false positives and false negatives there are for the monotonic heartbeat test. Could they skip putting the recruits through hell, or do they learn enough from it that it would still be worth it?

Liron 18y ago
Putting recruits through hell is training, not just a selection task.
gaius 18y ago
It's all about unit cohesion. The psychology of it is well-understood. People are afraid of failing so are reluctant to push their limits and expose themselves to criticism from their peers. By putting everyone through an ordeal together, everyone sees everyone else suffering, that barrier is broken down. The benefits of this type of training go way beyond the military.
- chriskelley 18y ago
  Put me with a perfect stranger and give us 80 minutes on the rugby pitch together and it's mind-blowing how fast a deep friendship can form.
  - gaius 18y ago
    Yeah, strip everyone down to the basics, no pretences, no bullshit, and we're all basically the same. Well, that's not true. There are those who are willing to do this and those that aren't.
  - andyjenn 18y ago
    Not always, although I know where you are coming from. Pretty soon you can find out whether they're someone you can "go over the trenches" with, no matter what size they might look.
  - anamax 18y ago
    Sports both build character and reveal it.
- dejb 18y ago
  I wonder whether the benefits are for those being trained or those doing the training. It seems to me the greatest trick of waging war is to convince people to put their lives at risk against an enemy that did not originally threaten them. Some people might refer to this phenomena as brain washing.
  - gaius 18y ago
    Cops, paramedics and firefighters all put their lives at risk going into situations that did not originally threaten them. Yet no-one would describe them as "brainwashed".
    - dejb 18y ago
      There is a certain threshold of dangerous and selfless action that defies ordinary logic. In the cases of direct and unambiguous help to others it is called heroism. In cases where the action causes harm to some parties the definition is less clear. In the worst cases it is referred to as terrorism. Either way the readiness to face mortal danger can be used for both good and evil. Whether it represents brainwashing however is a different question.
      - greyboy 18y ago
        That makes it sound rather subjective, then.
        Tangurena 18y ago
        Not subjective. It boils down more to feel the fear, but do it anyway. Which is the point of stress innoculation in basic training, police academy, the more advanced stuff of special forces, or even SERE. Grossman's books describe the physiological effects of stress and combat. Some of the responses are also caused by folks not understanding just what has happened to them, and why is their body acting like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival,_Evasion,_Resistance_and_Escape http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival,_Evasion,_Resistance_a... High speed driving tends to drive adrenaline levels way up. Police brutality complaints are much higher in the aftermath of high speed pursuits. Yet the tunnel vision and other responses of that kind of driving also affects non-police drivers. We had an incident here in Denver where an ambulance driver t-boned a light rail train. How the heck could someone not see something that's 15 feet tall and 200 feet long? Adrenaline poisoning will do it to you. And I contend that could have been anyone who did that, as well. It takes "innoculation" to learn how your body behaves in these situations, and to do the "right" thing despite what your body wants to do (which in my case is usually puke and soil myself).
scott_s 18y ago
Training is everything. Having a plan in a bad situation makes all the difference.

mstevens 18y ago

I'd be interested to read more about how much of the Special Forces difference they're born with and how much you can train.

Retric 18y ago
On the deck, the unconscious sailors are rolled on their sides, and as soon as they revive, an instructor shouts again and again: "Are you gonna quit? Are you gonna quit?" Sailors are given 30 seconds to answer or they're kicked out of the program. A lot their "training" seem designed to weed out those who lack specific innate traits. From what I understand the goal is to cull most people as soon as possible and then train those who remain which suggests they focus on innate talents rather than testing people after they have been trained. Which IMO is a good idea, because you don't know what you are going to face in the real world. PS: You see the same idea with a large high school's football camp. The first few days is all about weeding people out based on physical fitness.
- chuckm 18y ago
  A lot their "training" seem designed to weed out those who lack specific innate traits I don't think it's entirely about innate traits. There's a lot of training that occurs before going to some these schools. For example, in the Army you're not eligible to 'try out' for Special Forces until you're an E4 grade (not sure about officers), which may take 1.5 - 3 years to achieve, assuming you enlisted as an E1. Even then a lot of guys spend 2-4 months in special training programs before going and some don't pass until their second or third attempt.
  - falsestprophet 18y ago
    O3 or O2 promotable. So, everyone trying out is very experienced.
  - run4yourlives 18y ago
    In other words, they're controlling for knowledge and training gaps. All that remains is pure talent, really.

jcl 18y ago

As I was reading the article, I couldn't help wondering: Why doesn't everyone have the same traits that the special forces people do? Unless there was some huge downside, I'd expect evolutionary pressure to select for them. But it wasn't until the end of the article that it gives a hint of a disadvantage: Unfortunately, this metronomic effect is usually associated with early heart disease and even sudden death. Morgan wonders whether the same thing that makes you really good at surviving under high stress may not translate into excellent heart health when you're 50.

skmurphy 18y ago
From an evolutionary standpoint, anything that manifests above 40 has little impact if it gives you better survivability younger. For most of human history you will have already had your children and raised them to independence .
- defen 18y ago
  Let's not forget the advantage of having a large number of established elder relatives - they can help raise more kids, share resources, etc.
- reeses 18y ago
  That argument would mean that non-reproducing people, particularly homosexuality (if you believe the "genetics" argument), would have been eliminated by now.
  - skmurphy 18y ago
    Not if they contribute meaningfully to their siblings children's survival. Your argument also assumes that homosexuality is primarily determined by genetics and/or that they didn't father or bear children in spite of their orientation.
    - reeses 18y ago
      The part where I said "non-reproducing people" and "(if you believe the "genetics" argument)" cover what you said. You refute your original argument with your first sentence.

christofd 18y ago

(Btw - this is why i like HN. Trying to understand life, the universe and everything in practical terms.) Hmmm... yes, I wonder how much you can train stress resistance/ resilience and how much is nature-given. I'm probably more of a sensitive type person, but through ongoing training I've got myself to be able to endure lots of pain and stress through willpower (well, it's more like I'm more numb and less receptive than I used to be): doing martial arts since I was 6, resisting groups in social situations and insisting on what I think is right (braking peer pressure), occasionally engaging in physical fights (when I was younger), and again various sports activities like long distance running, skateboarding, mountainbiking, hiking etc. - IMHO it comes down to facing fear and pain on an ongoing basis: NO FEAR. lol. On another note, this is exactly why geeks are not in charge in most corporations. Because they are not in any way as well trained as your average jock to fight back against stress and pain. At least geeks can learn to live with this inherent weakness and be aware of it.