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You can make moral judgments all you want, that is of course your capability. That doesn't absolve you of racism. Let me make an observation. The average Chi

You can make moral judgments all you want, that is of course your capability. That doesn't absolve you of racism. Let me make an observation. The average Chinese person has much less real 'wealth' than the average American, and when you hold 'wealth' equal, American's are just as likely to lie, cheat and steal, because lying cheating and stealing have little to do with morality below a certain socio-economic level. You just can't generalize a result of poverty to an entire class of people, and then try and make a comparison to another class that doesn't live in poverty. And if we really want to get down to it. Average Americans have more of their basic needs fulfilled, and so less excuses for 'degraded morality' and yet it is they, and not the 'immoral chinese' who waste more food per capita when people in their own country and the world are starving, it is they who waste more water when over a 1 billion people don't have access to clean drinking water. It is they who through their political power and free-information ( certainly more than the average Chinese person ) choose to directly and indirectly support a government which subjugates not only millions of people directly around the world through its military empire, but also uses its preferential status as the world super-power to drive political and commercial entities in those same countries to commit terrible atrocities on their own people. All for the sake of maintaining the lifestyle of the Average American, who is so moral. and I'm sure if the chinese were afforded the same privileged position they would behave the same as the americans. But you do not recognize this, and feel it necessary to make a false equivalence and assert the moral superiority of one v the other. And it is this moral superiority complex that you seem to have, and which you seem to apply so liberally to Americans, but not Chinese who are evil and bad for stealing and lying and reacting to poverty, nevermind the people in poverty in the US who do the same thing, which makes your observation racist. As to your selection bias for evaluating elite morality. I would first indicate that the US has a much better and more vigilant news apparatus than China's. And that from a US perspective you haven't been 'informed' on all the bad things the chinese gov't does to its own people. Like how many people died as a direct result of flooding and displacement from the three gorges dam project, how many continue to die for lack of an EPA in beijing and other cities? All people are equally corrupt, regardless of nationality or socio-economic status ( above a certain level, below which 'morality' ceases to be relevant ). The reason why it appears the elite are more so is that their status as elite gives them much greater impact and reach than the average corrupt person. I don't have a problem with you giving an opinion or observation or even stating your moral position, I have a problem with the assumptions behind it, and the moral superiority you are displaying which I believe to be racist.

btilly 13y ago
It would really help if you were having an argument with what I said, rather than what you are reading into what I said that I didn't say. I never said that Chinese people are inherently worse people. I understand the effects of poverty, which my brother has also talked a great deal about. There are other possible explanations, such as the fact that China has had to put up with great population density for longer. But for whatever combination of reasons, my brother has experienced a higher rate of petty corruption in daily life in China than he has when he lives in the USA and Canada. Are his observations accurate? Let's look at corruption in daily life as measured by http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results. I see Canada at #9, the USA at #19 and China at #80. (Lower is better.) So according to that he's right, corruption is more of a problem in China on a personal level than in the USA. On the elites, despite the fact that I said it multiple times, you still have not acknowledged what my brother's basis of judgement is. My brother IS NOT working off of media accounts. He's working from personally knowing a number of them. He'd be the first to acknowledge that horrible things happen with great frequency in China. And with great frequency these things can be traced back to bad decisions by the elites. Who are an unelected group of bureaucrats that maintain power through military force. However he'd immediately come back with an explanation of exactly how huge the problems that they face are, and how rapidly things have been improving. His personal impression is that horrible mistakes notwithstanding, he's not aware of any point in history where so few people have done so much good for so many. I have no idea how defensible that claim is, but he's a smart guy and he has more background on this topic than I do. And likely than you do. Have YOU ever lived within walking distance of the Premier of China? How many meetings have YOU had with cabinet ministers? Finally you keep on accusing me of racism. I really don't think that the shoe fits. Yes, I know that it is a common trope to have a racist asshole who says he can't be racist because he's got a friend from group X. So I won't mention my various Chinese friends. And let's ignore the fact that of the half-dozen customers in this coffee shop, I'm the only Caucasian at the moment. But I do have several older half-siblings who are half-Chinese. I live in a neighborhood where many of my neighbors speak Mandarin as a first language. My daughter's best friends are Chinese. Were I truly racist, some of this should create emotional conflict for me. I assure you, I feel no such conflict. Of course I can't stop you from continuing to accuse me of racism. But I would suggest that continuing to take personal offense at what I have said lets you reject it without having to think about it. Thinking about it might be a worthwhile alternative.

btilly 13y ago

It would really help if you were having an argument with what I said, rather than what you are reading into what I said that I didn't say. I never said that Chinese people are inherently worse people. I understand the effects of poverty, which my brother has also talked a great deal about. There are other possible explanations, such as the fact that China has had to put up with great population density for longer. But for whatever combination of reasons, my brother has experienced a higher rate of petty corruption in daily life in China than he has when he lives in the USA and Canada. Are his observations accurate? Let's look at corruption in daily life as measured by http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results. I see Canada at #9, the USA at #19 and China at #80. (Lower is better.) So according to that he's right, corruption is more of a problem in China on a personal level than in the USA. On the elites, despite the fact that I said it multiple times, you still have not acknowledged what my brother's basis of judgement is. My brother IS NOT working off of media accounts. He's working from personally knowing a number of them. He'd be the first to acknowledge that horrible things happen with great frequency in China. And with great frequency these things can be traced back to bad decisions by the elites. Who are an unelected group of bureaucrats that maintain power through military force. However he'd immediately come back with an explanation of exactly how huge the problems that they face are, and how rapidly things have been improving. His personal impression is that horrible mistakes notwithstanding, he's not aware of any point in history where so few people have done so much good for so many. I have no idea how defensible that claim is, but he's a smart guy and he has more background on this topic than I do. And likely than you do. Have YOU ever lived within walking distance of the Premier of China? How many meetings have YOU had with cabinet ministers? Finally you keep on accusing me of racism. I really don't think that the shoe fits. Yes, I know that it is a common trope to have a racist asshole who says he can't be racist because he's got a friend from group X. So I won't mention my various Chinese friends. And let's ignore the fact that of the half-dozen customers in this coffee shop, I'm the only Caucasian at the moment. But I do have several older half-siblings who are half-Chinese. I live in a neighborhood where many of my neighbors speak Mandarin as a first language. My daughter's best friends are Chinese. Were I truly racist, some of this should create emotional conflict for me. I assure you, I feel no such conflict. Of course I can't stop you from continuing to accuse me of racism. But I would suggest that continuing to take personal offense at what I have said lets you reject it without having to think about it. Thinking about it might be a worthwhile alternative.