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"Actually, having a workaround by definition lessens the severity, as if someone wants to still run Skype, they can." I don't think everyone is on the same pag

"Actually, having a workaround by definition lessens the severity, as if someone wants to still run Skype, they can." I don't think everyone is on the same page about Ubuntu being a consumer distro and not a hacker's only distro... I have definitely noticed a decrease in the stability of Ubuntu releases over the years and it's attitudes like this that seem to be in part responsible for it. EDIT: Oh I kept reading, this is better: "Rainer, a better solution for international calls is to stop using Skype (which is closed source, and frequently has problems with its Linux client) and change to a service that supports standard protocols (SIP etc.), e.g. using Ekiga" Yes, the client should change their software and infrastructure to better suit your product... This makes it pretty much impossible for me to "sell" Ubuntu to any of my friends who aren't programmers AND tinkerers (many of my programers are too busy being productive to be interested in dicking around with making things work anymore, and increasingly I hold this view).

orangethirty 13y ago
I once bought a laptop which ran Windows 7. The Wifi did not work due to their drivers being broken.
- rictic 13y ago
  The correct move then is to return it.
  - orangethirty 13y ago
    No. The correct move was to install Ubuntu, which had the correct drivers. Point being that all software has issues. More so if the software is as complicated as an OS with two releases per year.
    - Posibyte 13y ago
      You bought a product and it did not work as advertised. The recommended path would have been to have it serviced or return it to the distributor. You could also attempt to install the correct working drivers, as this most likely would not void your warranty. However, changing the entire OS is a very big not-recommended move on a recently purchased laptop that's having such a simple problem.
      - moheeb 13y ago
        Why post something like this? I don't get it. He stated what he did to fix the problem and it apparently worked. So his recommendation is proven to work and yours is....?
        Posibyte 13y ago
        It's smothering the candle with a firehose. It's a very destructive solution for which avenues have been paved before-hand to solve such problems. Did it work? Yes. To fix one small problem (malfunctioning WiFi) he rendered himself incapable of doing other things (use Microsoft compatible software, and, no, I'm not including WINE). In the end, if his purpose was to install Ubuntu, then good for him. However, I wouldn't give it as general advice out of voiding their warranty alone.
        orangethirty 13y ago
        You missed the point by two blocks. Which is that OS have bugs. In my case, i was going to instalk ubuntu either way. I was making a counter argument against a comment above. Still, installing another OS does not void the warranty where i reside.
kunai 13y ago
> many of my programers are too busy being productive to be interested in dicking around with making things work anymore, and increasingly I hold this view This. I switched to OS X from Ubuntu about a few months ago simply because of this reason. I was too tired of tinkering and configuring endless .conf files, adjusting my GNOME/Xfce panel layouts for optimum productivity, and changing my display manager because all of them sucked. In my final days with Linux I was running Ubuntu Minimal with twm -- I went completely old-school. Fewer things at the core, fewer things to go wrong. I caved and bought a MacBook Air. While I miss the endless configurability of Linux, I find that most of the time I spend trying to configure OS X is only spent to make things more suitable for my workflow -- changing the number of desktops I have, changing the applications in my dock, or adjusting Exposé to show all app windows. I never have to configure something because it breaks or isn't compatible with something else. I could have gone the FreeBSD way, but then, well, you know. OS X just works. As a Ruby and Java developer I find it perfect. I probably will try the 13.04 release on the Mac (I tried the beta and liked it), and I'll see how it goes. It looks like a solid release, so I'd really like to keep it (but I probably won't because I'm cheap and only have the 120gig SSD).
- xradionut 13y ago
  Except for a few driver issues, (Nvidia and Optimus, doh!), I haven't had a issue with Ubuntu or Mint. Any other issues with configuration, I would have also had with Windows or OS X since they were application or server specific. But I don't spend days tweaking the UI, I have a baseline of UI expectations that's not too difficult to meet. (But Windows 8 doesn't meet it... 'nother story for 'nother day...)
  - YZF 13y ago
    I've had tons of issues. Especially around power management, multi-monitor support etc. When I "Hibernate" I also need to roll a d10 to know if it'll actually come back up. This is anecdotal but on same hardware there are no issues under Windows and everything works as expected. Eclipse seems less stable and slower under Ubuntu which is probably related to the Java run time. Firefox also less stable. Webcam sometimes doesn't work. Audio suddenly stops playing until you touch the volume. Couldn't get WebEx working under Ubuntu (tried lots of suggested workarounds). The kind of stuff that just works in other OSes.
jayferd 13y ago
Guys, Skype is owned by Microsoft, and the Linux version hasn't been touched in like 2 years. I'm frankly not surprised it's b0rked. So... yes, the user should use software that isn't deprecating support for their platform.
- mindstab 13y ago
  They are releasing steady updates for it. 4.1 came out Nov 2012. That's hardly 2 years. That's after the last Ubuntu release. And it's fully supported for the platform. What are you talking about?
  - jayferd 13y ago
    Well that's news to me. The last I looked was before November, I guess, and before that it still had the same old crufty UI from like 5 years ago. The userbase had been pretty up-in-arms about it for a while too: http://community.skype.com/t5/Linux/Vote-here-for-linux-skype-update/m-p/767998#M1548 http://community.skype.com/t5/Linux/Vote-here-for-linux-skyp... Edit: also, they're still sitting on version 5, which introduced group video calling. It's a pretty sad situation overall.
    - jebblue 13y ago
      Much as I can't stand to say something nice about Microsoft, the Skype updates at least on Ubuntu 12.04 have worked fine.
kfcm 13y ago
>many of my programers are too busy being productive to be interested in dicking around with making things work anymore, and increasingly I hold this view This is a sign of maturity. Time is our one true finite resource, and we need to prioritize what we do with it.
clauretano 13y ago
At least they're consistent in not liking Microsoft. Ubuntu bug #1, for reference https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1
pekk 13y ago
Ubuntu has no control over the Skype project. They aren't obligated to support every third-party product when it is impossible to do this. I don't think this is the problem with recent Ubuntu releases.
- nl 13y ago
  Ubuntu has no control over the Skype project. They aren't obligated to support every third-party product when it is impossible to do this. That's an interesting attitude. Backwards compatibility is a generally regarded as a feature. If you read Raymond Chen's blog about the length's Microsoft went to in order to support old software on new versions of Windows you'll see how important some operating system vendors regard it. Linux generally seems to have an interesting attitude to backwards compatibility. "It works on old hardware" is something that used to be regarded as a huge benefit of Linux. These days - especially for Ubuntu - it doesn't seem to be regarded as a feature at all. Additionally Ubuntu seems to introduce breaking API changes in every release. I find that to be quite a surprising route to take for an OS that is trying to build desktop share. I'd be quite interested to hear why people think they do this. Is backwards compatibility just not seen as important at all or is there a bigger strategy here?
- Poyeyo 13y ago
  Actually, they should try. They are not obligated, but it is in their best interests to build a reputation of not breaking things. I do think that Linux lacks a reputation of not breaking existing programs as much as it lacked a reputation of ease of use before Ubuntu. Now, ease of use, and not breaking things? I bet that kind of reputation is worth millions of dollars. Even Linus agrees about it, when it comes to the kernel breaking userland programs. The kernel developers have no control over userland programs. Nonetheless, the kernel developers try very hard not to break userland programs.
readme 13y ago
So, a "hacker's distro" should have bugs in it? No thanks, I'll take functional software.
maxcan 13y ago
To be fair, I have definitely noted a decrease in stability of OSX releases of the last few years too.
JDShu 13y ago
"Yes, the client should change their software and infrastructure to better suit your product..." The person you quoted isn't even a developer as far as I can tell.

orangethirty 13y ago

I once bought a laptop which ran Windows 7. The Wifi did not work due to their drivers being broken.

rictic 13y ago
The correct move then is to return it.
- orangethirty 13y ago
  No. The correct move was to install Ubuntu, which had the correct drivers. Point being that all software has issues. More so if the software is as complicated as an OS with two releases per year.
  - Posibyte 13y ago
    You bought a product and it did not work as advertised. The recommended path would have been to have it serviced or return it to the distributor. You could also attempt to install the correct working drivers, as this most likely would not void your warranty. However, changing the entire OS is a very big not-recommended move on a recently purchased laptop that's having such a simple problem.
    - moheeb 13y ago
      Why post something like this? I don't get it. He stated what he did to fix the problem and it apparently worked. So his recommendation is proven to work and yours is....?
      - Posibyte 13y ago
        It's smothering the candle with a firehose. It's a very destructive solution for which avenues have been paved before-hand to solve such problems. Did it work? Yes. To fix one small problem (malfunctioning WiFi) he rendered himself incapable of doing other things (use Microsoft compatible software, and, no, I'm not including WINE). In the end, if his purpose was to install Ubuntu, then good for him. However, I wouldn't give it as general advice out of voiding their warranty alone.
        orangethirty 13y ago
        You missed the point by two blocks. Which is that OS have bugs. In my case, i was going to instalk ubuntu either way. I was making a counter argument against a comment above. Still, installing another OS does not void the warranty where i reside.

kunai 13y ago

> many of my programers are too busy being productive to be interested in dicking around with making things work anymore, and increasingly I hold this view This. I switched to OS X from Ubuntu about a few months ago simply because of this reason. I was too tired of tinkering and configuring endless .conf files, adjusting my GNOME/Xfce panel layouts for optimum productivity, and changing my display manager because all of them sucked. In my final days with Linux I was running Ubuntu Minimal with twm -- I went completely old-school. Fewer things at the core, fewer things to go wrong. I caved and bought a MacBook Air. While I miss the endless configurability of Linux, I find that most of the time I spend trying to configure OS X is only spent to make things more suitable for my workflow -- changing the number of desktops I have, changing the applications in my dock, or adjusting Exposé to show all app windows. I never have to configure something because it breaks or isn't compatible with something else. I could have gone the FreeBSD way, but then, well, you know. OS X just works. As a Ruby and Java developer I find it perfect. I probably will try the 13.04 release on the Mac (I tried the beta and liked it), and I'll see how it goes. It looks like a solid release, so I'd really like to keep it (but I probably won't because I'm cheap and only have the 120gig SSD).

xradionut 13y ago
Except for a few driver issues, (Nvidia and Optimus, doh!), I haven't had a issue with Ubuntu or Mint. Any other issues with configuration, I would have also had with Windows or OS X since they were application or server specific. But I don't spend days tweaking the UI, I have a baseline of UI expectations that's not too difficult to meet. (But Windows 8 doesn't meet it... 'nother story for 'nother day...)
- YZF 13y ago
  I've had tons of issues. Especially around power management, multi-monitor support etc. When I "Hibernate" I also need to roll a d10 to know if it'll actually come back up. This is anecdotal but on same hardware there are no issues under Windows and everything works as expected. Eclipse seems less stable and slower under Ubuntu which is probably related to the Java run time. Firefox also less stable. Webcam sometimes doesn't work. Audio suddenly stops playing until you touch the volume. Couldn't get WebEx working under Ubuntu (tried lots of suggested workarounds). The kind of stuff that just works in other OSes.

jayferd 13y ago

Guys, Skype is owned by Microsoft, and the Linux version hasn't been touched in like 2 years. I'm frankly not surprised it's b0rked. So... yes, the user should use software that isn't deprecating support for their platform.

mindstab 13y ago
They are releasing steady updates for it. 4.1 came out Nov 2012. That's hardly 2 years. That's after the last Ubuntu release. And it's fully supported for the platform. What are you talking about?
- jayferd 13y ago
  Well that's news to me. The last I looked was before November, I guess, and before that it still had the same old crufty UI from like 5 years ago. The userbase had been pretty up-in-arms about it for a while too: http://community.skype.com/t5/Linux/Vote-here-for-linux-skype-update/m-p/767998#M1548 http://community.skype.com/t5/Linux/Vote-here-for-linux-skyp... Edit: also, they're still sitting on version 5, which introduced group video calling. It's a pretty sad situation overall.
  - jebblue 13y ago
    Much as I can't stand to say something nice about Microsoft, the Skype updates at least on Ubuntu 12.04 have worked fine.

kfcm 13y ago

>many of my programers are too busy being productive to be interested in dicking around with making things work anymore, and increasingly I hold this view This is a sign of maturity. Time is our one true finite resource, and we need to prioritize what we do with it.

clauretano 13y ago

At least they're consistent in not liking Microsoft. Ubuntu bug #1, for reference https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1

pekk 13y ago

Ubuntu has no control over the Skype project. They aren't obligated to support every third-party product when it is impossible to do this. I don't think this is the problem with recent Ubuntu releases.

nl 13y ago
Ubuntu has no control over the Skype project. They aren't obligated to support every third-party product when it is impossible to do this. That's an interesting attitude. Backwards compatibility is a generally regarded as a feature. If you read Raymond Chen's blog about the length's Microsoft went to in order to support old software on new versions of Windows you'll see how important some operating system vendors regard it. Linux generally seems to have an interesting attitude to backwards compatibility. "It works on old hardware" is something that used to be regarded as a huge benefit of Linux. These days - especially for Ubuntu - it doesn't seem to be regarded as a feature at all. Additionally Ubuntu seems to introduce breaking API changes in every release. I find that to be quite a surprising route to take for an OS that is trying to build desktop share. I'd be quite interested to hear why people think they do this. Is backwards compatibility just not seen as important at all or is there a bigger strategy here?
Poyeyo 13y ago
Actually, they should try. They are not obligated, but it is in their best interests to build a reputation of not breaking things. I do think that Linux lacks a reputation of not breaking existing programs as much as it lacked a reputation of ease of use before Ubuntu. Now, ease of use, and not breaking things? I bet that kind of reputation is worth millions of dollars. Even Linus agrees about it, when it comes to the kernel breaking userland programs. The kernel developers have no control over userland programs. Nonetheless, the kernel developers try very hard not to break userland programs.

readme 13y ago

So, a "hacker's distro" should have bugs in it? No thanks, I'll take functional software.

maxcan 13y ago

To be fair, I have definitely noted a decrease in stability of OSX releases of the last few years too.

JDShu 13y ago

"Yes, the client should change their software and infrastructure to better suit your product..." The person you quoted isn't even a developer as far as I can tell.