5 ms·

Huawei would have to defeat the general notion that Americans have that anything made in China is a cheap piece of crap. Americans don't realize that everything

Huawei would have to defeat the general notion that Americans have that anything made in China is a cheap piece of crap. Americans don't realize that everything is made in China, even though all their products say so. Most Americans think Made In America means quality and are blinded to the fact that other countries have other brands and different ways to live. Huawei would have been screwed in America, it just sounds like a brand that would be selling electronics at the Dollar General.

S_A_P 14y ago
I disagree- I think Huawei would have to defeat the notion that their products have a backdoor that allows the Chinese government to directly access them and spy on/ attack the US. I think the stigma of made in china being cheap or second rate is largely gone now and replaced with the fear of china is gunning for us.
- shared4you 14y ago
  They even offered their source code for the government for review, but Australian govt refused. They clearly mean business, and not spying. http://www.cso.com.au/article/440054/huawei_offers_australia_its_source_code_wants_rivals_do_it_too/ http://www.cso.com.au/article/440054/huawei_offers_australia...
  - mpyne 14y ago
    You need to read Ken Thompson's Reflections on Trusting Trust: http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html Merely having the source available for review is hardly a guarantee of safety, without a way to verify that what's embedded in the ROM and microcode is identical. And why should Australia pay to make this verification when it would bump the TCO higher than competing kit?
    - Volpe 14y ago
      Source for huaweis bid being more expensive? There are ways to verify, surely, checksum builds/roms etc.
      - mpyne 14y ago
        I'm not talking about Huawei's bid being more expensive. I'm talking about the cost of hiring Australian-certified source code auditors, developers of software to be used to certify Huawei kit, ongoing re-certification of Huawei firmware updates, the time spent by regulators even worrying about this on an ongoing basis, etc., etc. It all adds up to the total cost of ownership (TCO). So I feel sorry for Huawei but if people are truly worried about the Communist Party of China forcing them to sell pre-hacked kit then it's going to be a rough slog for them. Trust is easy to lose but hard to regain.
    - SkyMarshal 14y ago
      Eg, the problem of hardware backdooring. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRxDvkKBMTc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRxDvkKBMTc http://www.extremetech.com/computing/133773-rakshasa-the-hardware-backdoor-that-china-could-embed-in-every-computer http://www.extremetech.com/computing/133773-rakshasa-the-har...
- ScottWhigham 14y ago
  I think the stigma of made in china being cheap or second rate is largely gone now Do you actually live in America, or are you just speculating? That's an absurd statement for someone who actually lives in the US.
  - S_A_P 14y ago
    Not really. I live in Houston, Tx. I cant say that aside from intentionally cheap things like disposible electronics or guitars, no real stigma exists from the people I associate with. I think that the nationalism surrounding all manufacturing leaving the US may upset people but I dont think that people find chinese goods "inferior" to anything...
    - ScottWhigham 14y ago
      Okay - quick test: would you feed your children (if you have them) food that was imported from China? Your average American citizen would say, "WTH is wrong with you? Of course not!" Or how about this if you don't have kids: "Would you drive yourself across country in a Chinese made car with no other means for acquiring another car if there are severe problems with said car along the way?" If you said, "Sure!", then I just really have no other choice to believe that you either have some bias, very little world/life experience (teenager, younger 20-something), a counter-bias against what you perceive as a bias, or an agenda going on. If you were of Chinese descent, for example, you might have an agenda/bias that would explain such a statement. If you were an idealistic teenager, you might be rebelling against the unfairness of the world with such a statement. If you were of Asian descent and felt some need to "protect" Asian heritage/reputations in America, you'd make such a statement. Any adult who has spent more than 10 years continuous time in the USA in the past 40 years just would not have such an opinion.
criley 14y ago
I'm sorry but I think you're totally off base. And I do think a lot of Chinese goods are crap. What's the pinnacle of Chinese goods? Smartphones and gaming consoles? Two categories of goods known for their much-higher-than-average failure rates? I think you're just blind to the kinds of goods that Americans make since we tend to let the cheap and easy crap get produced abroad. > Americans don't realize that everything is made in China, even though all their products say so No, most people like you don't realize that China only accounts for a tiny fraction of consumer spending. Did you know that Americans spend ~88.5% of their personal consumption expenditures on goods made in America and about 2.7% on goods made in China? [1] Americans spend 32X more on goods made in America than they do on goods made in China. Maybe stop shopping at Wal-Mart and buying crappy goods that will find their way to a landfill in under a year, and you'll stop seeing "made in china" everywhere. You'd be surprised what a little more money will buy you -- there's a lot of great, durable stuff out there that generally doesn't come from Wal-Mart or say "Made in China" [1] http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/letter/2011/el2011-25.html http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/letter/2011/el20... >Most Americans think Made In America means quality and are blinded to the fact that other countries have other brands and different ways to live. Did you know that most Chinese also agree that Made in America is a symbol of quality? One survey found that while 80% of Americans believe made in America means higher quality, some 60% of Chinese surveyed agreed with that.[2] Also, the insinuation that Americans don't realize that brands from other countries are good is a myopic, insulting joke. Yeah, we don't buy and love South Korean electronics, Japanese cars, French and Italian wines and cheeses, etc etc etc and on and on and on. Imported quality goods have always fetched a premium in American hearts. Low-quality Wal-Mart level goods earn the disdain they deserve. [2]http://www.bcg.com/media/PressReleaseDetails.aspx?id=tcm:12-121840 http://www.bcg.com/media/PressReleaseDetails.aspx?id=tcm:12-... >Huawei would have been screwed in America, it just sounds like a brand that would be selling electronics at the Dollar General. Americans used to think Japanese goods were total crap. Not many Americans wanted a "Honda" or "Toyota" car in the 70's or 80's. Japan turned their brands around and fought for respect -- and won it. Then, as recently as a decade ago Americans largely dismissed South Korean goods. A Hyundai car? What a joke! Everyone knows South Korean goods are crap. Except, South Korean brands fought for and won American loyalty through good products and good service. Chinese brands could totally follow the same well trod path that brands from other East Asian countries have followed, and there is no reason to believe they would fail.

S_A_P 14y ago

I disagree- I think Huawei would have to defeat the notion that their products have a backdoor that allows the Chinese government to directly access them and spy on/ attack the US. I think the stigma of made in china being cheap or second rate is largely gone now and replaced with the fear of china is gunning for us.

shared4you 14y ago
They even offered their source code for the government for review, but Australian govt refused. They clearly mean business, and not spying. http://www.cso.com.au/article/440054/huawei_offers_australia_its_source_code_wants_rivals_do_it_too/ http://www.cso.com.au/article/440054/huawei_offers_australia...
- mpyne 14y ago
  You need to read Ken Thompson's Reflections on Trusting Trust: http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html Merely having the source available for review is hardly a guarantee of safety, without a way to verify that what's embedded in the ROM and microcode is identical. And why should Australia pay to make this verification when it would bump the TCO higher than competing kit?
  - Volpe 14y ago
    Source for huaweis bid being more expensive? There are ways to verify, surely, checksum builds/roms etc.
    - mpyne 14y ago
      I'm not talking about Huawei's bid being more expensive. I'm talking about the cost of hiring Australian-certified source code auditors, developers of software to be used to certify Huawei kit, ongoing re-certification of Huawei firmware updates, the time spent by regulators even worrying about this on an ongoing basis, etc., etc. It all adds up to the total cost of ownership (TCO). So I feel sorry for Huawei but if people are truly worried about the Communist Party of China forcing them to sell pre-hacked kit then it's going to be a rough slog for them. Trust is easy to lose but hard to regain.
  - SkyMarshal 14y ago
    Eg, the problem of hardware backdooring. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRxDvkKBMTc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRxDvkKBMTc http://www.extremetech.com/computing/133773-rakshasa-the-hardware-backdoor-that-china-could-embed-in-every-computer http://www.extremetech.com/computing/133773-rakshasa-the-har...
ScottWhigham 14y ago
I think the stigma of made in china being cheap or second rate is largely gone now Do you actually live in America, or are you just speculating? That's an absurd statement for someone who actually lives in the US.
- S_A_P 14y ago
  Not really. I live in Houston, Tx. I cant say that aside from intentionally cheap things like disposible electronics or guitars, no real stigma exists from the people I associate with. I think that the nationalism surrounding all manufacturing leaving the US may upset people but I dont think that people find chinese goods "inferior" to anything...
  - ScottWhigham 14y ago
    Okay - quick test: would you feed your children (if you have them) food that was imported from China? Your average American citizen would say, "WTH is wrong with you? Of course not!" Or how about this if you don't have kids: "Would you drive yourself across country in a Chinese made car with no other means for acquiring another car if there are severe problems with said car along the way?" If you said, "Sure!", then I just really have no other choice to believe that you either have some bias, very little world/life experience (teenager, younger 20-something), a counter-bias against what you perceive as a bias, or an agenda going on. If you were of Chinese descent, for example, you might have an agenda/bias that would explain such a statement. If you were an idealistic teenager, you might be rebelling against the unfairness of the world with such a statement. If you were of Asian descent and felt some need to "protect" Asian heritage/reputations in America, you'd make such a statement. Any adult who has spent more than 10 years continuous time in the USA in the past 40 years just would not have such an opinion.

criley 14y ago

I'm sorry but I think you're totally off base. And I do think a lot of Chinese goods are crap. What's the pinnacle of Chinese goods? Smartphones and gaming consoles? Two categories of goods known for their much-higher-than-average failure rates? I think you're just blind to the kinds of goods that Americans make since we tend to let the cheap and easy crap get produced abroad. > Americans don't realize that everything is made in China, even though all their products say so No, most people like you don't realize that China only accounts for a tiny fraction of consumer spending. Did you know that Americans spend ~88.5% of their personal consumption expenditures on goods made in America and about 2.7% on goods made in China? [1] Americans spend 32X more on goods made in America than they do on goods made in China. Maybe stop shopping at Wal-Mart and buying crappy goods that will find their way to a landfill in under a year, and you'll stop seeing "made in china" everywhere. You'd be surprised what a little more money will buy you -- there's a lot of great, durable stuff out there that generally doesn't come from Wal-Mart or say "Made in China" [1] http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/letter/2011/el2011-25.html http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/letter/2011/el20... >Most Americans think Made In America means quality and are blinded to the fact that other countries have other brands and different ways to live. Did you know that most Chinese also agree that Made in America is a symbol of quality? One survey found that while 80% of Americans believe made in America means higher quality, some 60% of Chinese surveyed agreed with that.[2] Also, the insinuation that Americans don't realize that brands from other countries are good is a myopic, insulting joke. Yeah, we don't buy and love South Korean electronics, Japanese cars, French and Italian wines and cheeses, etc etc etc and on and on and on. Imported quality goods have always fetched a premium in American hearts. Low-quality Wal-Mart level goods earn the disdain they deserve. [2]http://www.bcg.com/media/PressReleaseDetails.aspx?id=tcm:12-121840 http://www.bcg.com/media/PressReleaseDetails.aspx?id=tcm:12-... >Huawei would have been screwed in America, it just sounds like a brand that would be selling electronics at the Dollar General. Americans used to think Japanese goods were total crap. Not many Americans wanted a "Honda" or "Toyota" car in the 70's or 80's. Japan turned their brands around and fought for respect -- and won it. Then, as recently as a decade ago Americans largely dismissed South Korean goods. A Hyundai car? What a joke! Everyone knows South Korean goods are crap. Except, South Korean brands fought for and won American loyalty through good products and good service. Chinese brands could totally follow the same well trod path that brands from other East Asian countries have followed, and there is no reason to believe they would fail.