5 ms·

because software is booming Do you have statistics for this? While the need for STEM is obviously rising, I feel like a lot of this conversation devolves into

by jmduke 14y ago

because software is booming Do you have statistics for this? While the need for STEM is obviously rising, I feel like a lot of this conversation devolves into an echo chamber: I'd love to see hard statistics about STEM career demand.

pbiggar 14y ago
I know that when I sent an email to the YC founders list cause I needed a job (2 years ago, but that's recent), I got 100 replies. I also know I find it hard to find really good devs for CircleCI. But those are just anecdotes...
- bicknergseng 14y ago
  Anecdotal evidence in the opposite direction: only half of my computer engineering peers in my graduating class of 2011 had jobs in the industry within 3 months of graduating. While I think some devs are in high demand, I think many have little horizontal or upward mobility if they can get a job at all. I don't have a lot of evidence to back this up, and that WP study seems to talk a lot more about IT than software development, but I think it's probably something to think about. I think there's a crisis in training and mentorship in our industry, rather than one of willing bodies.
  - pbiggar 14y ago
    I totally agree, and I don't think that's actually an argument in the opposite direction, but rather an affirmation: good people have great opportunity, bad people do not. Half of my classmates in college were poor programmers, so I don't doubt that yours were too. Which is my point above: we're starved of great devs because of stats about shit devs.
    - yen223 14y ago
      How would you differentiate a "great" dev, a "good" dev, and a shit one? Not being snarky, genuinely curious.
      - pbiggar 14y ago
        A shit dev can't reverse a list. A good dev can code arbitrary problems you give him, and can actually ship working code. A great dev can discuss ins-and-outs of an arbitrary system you give him to design, moving up and down the stack with ease. That's a rough guide, with many edge cases, but that's how we go about it.
    - bicknergseng 14y ago
      But I think that misses my point... I don't think we get to complain about a lack of good developers without trying to do something to make the bottom 50% of developers better. Taken in the context of the general population, that bottom 50% is still highly intelligent and generally very capable group of individuals. IMO we're starved of great devs because we don't make bad devs better.
      - ktsmith 14y ago
        It used to be that employers trained less skilled individuals and there was more incentive to stay with employers for a long time. Now there is very little loyalty between employees or employers. I think this is a significant part of the problem.
        shrughes 14y ago
        It's not. You couldn't beat programming ability into the vast majority of incompetards.
        lsc 14y ago
        > It used to be that employers trained less skilled individuals and there was more incentive to stay with employers for a long time. Now there is very little loyalty between employees or employers. I think this is a significant part of the problem. Uh, I dono about the whole staying long time thing, but employers do train, or at least hire unqualified people they expect to grow into the position. Especially low-budget web startups... yeah, they talk about "rockstar ninja" this and that, but who do you think they actually get, when they are paying below market rates? I mean, I'm not criticizing; some people really respond to "non-monetary compensation" - and that's what the rockstar ninja bullshit is. I hire from the same pool, really; but I'm all apologetic about paying you shit. Who would you rather work for? me, saying "Hey, sorry I'm paying you shit. but hey, the last guy who had the job got a really good job with $realcompany after two years." - or some startup, that says you are an awesome best in the world rockstar ninja, and you aren't getting much money, but you have equity in this startup that will change the world!" I mean, it's really the same thing, just framed in different ways. And most people? they like the rockstar ninja framing.
  - argonaut 14y ago
    Did they end up in finance/management consulting?
  - wooster 14y ago
    Anecdotally, Computer Engineering degrees have a bad rep with HR and hiring managers. The degrees seem to cover too little EE to do hardware work and too little CS to do software work. I agree about the crisis in training and mentorship. A lot of people who seem like weak candidates are really just lacking in experience and direction.
  - tomkarlo 14y ago
    It's hard enough to find qualified devs out of the pool of folks with CS degrees, which often fail to prepare students for the workplace. CE is possibly at a disadvantage because in covering two disciplines, it doesn't serve either particularly well; there aren't as many jobs where that kind of mixed software/hardware expertise is crucial. It's kind of a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none problem, at least in terms of perception.
microarchitect 14y ago
One statistic I remember is from Brad Smith's talk at Brookings (http://www.brookings.edu/events/2012/09/27-stem-education#ref-id=20120927_GS_fullevent2 http://www.brookings.edu/events/2012/09/27-stem-education#re...). He says (around the 6:30 mark) that Microsoft has over 3400 open jobs for engineers and software developers in this US and this number is a 34% increase from last year.
- tomkarlo 14y ago
  Is that because the job market is so tight, or because they're not paying enough for the level of talent they want, relative to alternatives like Wall Street and other major tech companies? Microsoft used to be able to pay market (for tech) but get all-stars because of their name and the perceived quality of their stock. Now that they don't have that kind of brand, those same people are going to places like Google, Apple, Facebook or [insert hot startup] instead.
  - wyclif 14y ago
    "There's no shortage of smart, hardworking engineers. There's a shortage of smart, hardworking engineers willing to work for very little money." ~ David "Pardo" Keppel
    - tomkarlo 14y ago
      Exactly. Reminds me of a startup that complained to me they couldn't find any good engineers in Silicon Valley - when they were offering 25% below market comp.

by jmduke 14y ago

pbiggar 14y ago

I know that when I sent an email to the YC founders list cause I needed a job (2 years ago, but that's recent), I got 100 replies. I also know I find it hard to find really good devs for CircleCI. But those are just anecdotes...

bicknergseng 14y ago
Anecdotal evidence in the opposite direction: only half of my computer engineering peers in my graduating class of 2011 had jobs in the industry within 3 months of graduating. While I think some devs are in high demand, I think many have little horizontal or upward mobility if they can get a job at all. I don't have a lot of evidence to back this up, and that WP study seems to talk a lot more about IT than software development, but I think it's probably something to think about. I think there's a crisis in training and mentorship in our industry, rather than one of willing bodies.
- pbiggar 14y ago
  I totally agree, and I don't think that's actually an argument in the opposite direction, but rather an affirmation: good people have great opportunity, bad people do not. Half of my classmates in college were poor programmers, so I don't doubt that yours were too. Which is my point above: we're starved of great devs because of stats about shit devs.
  - yen223 14y ago
    How would you differentiate a "great" dev, a "good" dev, and a shit one? Not being snarky, genuinely curious.
    - pbiggar 14y ago
      A shit dev can't reverse a list. A good dev can code arbitrary problems you give him, and can actually ship working code. A great dev can discuss ins-and-outs of an arbitrary system you give him to design, moving up and down the stack with ease. That's a rough guide, with many edge cases, but that's how we go about it.
  - bicknergseng 14y ago
    But I think that misses my point... I don't think we get to complain about a lack of good developers without trying to do something to make the bottom 50% of developers better. Taken in the context of the general population, that bottom 50% is still highly intelligent and generally very capable group of individuals. IMO we're starved of great devs because we don't make bad devs better.
    - ktsmith 14y ago
      It used to be that employers trained less skilled individuals and there was more incentive to stay with employers for a long time. Now there is very little loyalty between employees or employers. I think this is a significant part of the problem.
      - shrughes 14y ago
        It's not. You couldn't beat programming ability into the vast majority of incompetards.
      - lsc 14y ago
        > It used to be that employers trained less skilled individuals and there was more incentive to stay with employers for a long time. Now there is very little loyalty between employees or employers. I think this is a significant part of the problem. Uh, I dono about the whole staying long time thing, but employers do train, or at least hire unqualified people they expect to grow into the position. Especially low-budget web startups... yeah, they talk about "rockstar ninja" this and that, but who do you think they actually get, when they are paying below market rates? I mean, I'm not criticizing; some people really respond to "non-monetary compensation" - and that's what the rockstar ninja bullshit is. I hire from the same pool, really; but I'm all apologetic about paying you shit. Who would you rather work for? me, saying "Hey, sorry I'm paying you shit. but hey, the last guy who had the job got a really good job with $realcompany after two years." - or some startup, that says you are an awesome best in the world rockstar ninja, and you aren't getting much money, but you have equity in this startup that will change the world!" I mean, it's really the same thing, just framed in different ways. And most people? they like the rockstar ninja framing.
- argonaut 14y ago
  Did they end up in finance/management consulting?
- wooster 14y ago
  Anecdotally, Computer Engineering degrees have a bad rep with HR and hiring managers. The degrees seem to cover too little EE to do hardware work and too little CS to do software work. I agree about the crisis in training and mentorship. A lot of people who seem like weak candidates are really just lacking in experience and direction.
- tomkarlo 14y ago
  It's hard enough to find qualified devs out of the pool of folks with CS degrees, which often fail to prepare students for the workplace. CE is possibly at a disadvantage because in covering two disciplines, it doesn't serve either particularly well; there aren't as many jobs where that kind of mixed software/hardware expertise is crucial. It's kind of a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none problem, at least in terms of perception.

microarchitect 14y ago

One statistic I remember is from Brad Smith's talk at Brookings (http://www.brookings.edu/events/2012/09/27-stem-education#ref-id=20120927_GS_fullevent2 http://www.brookings.edu/events/2012/09/27-stem-education#re...). He says (around the 6:30 mark) that Microsoft has over 3400 open jobs for engineers and software developers in this US and this number is a 34% increase from last year.

tomkarlo 14y ago
Is that because the job market is so tight, or because they're not paying enough for the level of talent they want, relative to alternatives like Wall Street and other major tech companies? Microsoft used to be able to pay market (for tech) but get all-stars because of their name and the perceived quality of their stock. Now that they don't have that kind of brand, those same people are going to places like Google, Apple, Facebook or [insert hot startup] instead.
- wyclif 14y ago
  "There's no shortage of smart, hardworking engineers. There's a shortage of smart, hardworking engineers willing to work for very little money." ~ David "Pardo" Keppel
  - tomkarlo 14y ago
    Exactly. Reminds me of a startup that complained to me they couldn't find any good engineers in Silicon Valley - when they were offering 25% below market comp.