4 ms·

I think this policy makes perfect sense. In the Netherlands we've put the borders wide open since the early 90s and perhaps even earlier due to EU legislation.

by wsc981 14y ago

I think this policy makes perfect sense. In the Netherlands we've put the borders wide open since the early 90s and perhaps even earlier due to EU legislation. Overall the results have been terrible. These are some of the issues we deal with nowadays: - many immigrants are on welfare, this puts a huge economic pressure on our country. - many immigrants of Middle-Eastern descent put a huge pressure on our healthcare (e.g. very many visits to our general practitioners). - the culture of many Middle-Eastern immigrants doesn't merge very well with our Western culture. E.g. in Marrocan culture boys are generally higher regarded as girls. Additionally these boys are one of our biggest problem groups (very high criminality). Mothers don't have the means to correct these boys. - I should note Marrocan girls seem to do pretty well in the Netherlands, low criminality and generally hard working students at school with good grades. It's interesting when browsing fora of Dutch-Marrocan people (for example http.maroc.nl) you often see posts of Marrocan girls looking for converted (to Islam) Dutch guys to wed. These girls often prefer converted Dutch partner because the girls themselves would have more freedom in such a relation. Many of these immigrants live close to each other. Since many woman don't work and are not allowed to leave home by themselves except for shopping / visiting the doctor, they often don't learn the Dutch language which results in them being socially excluded from the Dutch society. In my opinion our own government failed big time on this. We should have had limited immigration from the start (early 70s or 80s perhaps?) and when people would come we should have made sure immigrants would be spread around cities, not living close to each other in "ghettos". This would have forced many immigrants to integrate better in our society. Either way, I think unlimited immigration puts huge strains on society and eventually destabilises society as a whole because of culture clashes.

anigbrowl 14y ago
It takes a few generations for these things to work themselves out. I imagine the former Dutch colonies would have preferred a more limited subjugation as well, but you can't always have what you want.
kintamanimatt 14y ago
This is really quite xenophobic. The majority of migration is going to be from the EU [1], and despite Europe's integration by way of treaties, I'm under the impression that someone fresh off the boat (metaphorically speaking) can't just suddenly claim all the welfare there is. Immigrants from non-EU countries have to be able to show their ability to support themselves before they're granted a visa, so I highly doubt they're a huge burden on society too. Only something like 2.16% of population is from Morocco [2] and I really doubt they're the result of society's ills. While I can't find statistics, I highly doubt these people are draining the country's coffers through welfare payments. Also, why do you think they're constantly seeking health care? Even if they are, you seem to be saying they're unnecessarily visiting the doctor and are hypochondriacs; again, I struggle to understand why this would be the case just because they're from the middle east. Do you have any statistics available that demonstrate middle-eastern immigrants visit their GP more than born and bred Dutch, and are feigning illness? (I'm not saying it's untrue, I just can't find anything to support or refute your claim.) The thing with the freedom of movement provisions is it works both ways: the Dutch are just as able to leave and move to another EU nation as other EU nationals are able to move to the Netherlands. Quite a good number of Dutch emigrate both to within and outside the EU, which is fair and fine. Immigration, at least in the US, can be argued to have quite a positive effect on society. [3] I see no reason for this not to apply to the Netherlands. What your argument really seems to boil down to is that there are people from a different tribe that are living among your tribe and, by way of confirmation bias, you notice all the things they do wrong. No society is perfect and not all immigrants are going to integrate into society or be a net benefit, but many more will be. Relatively speaking, the Netherlands has its shit together and I fail to see any evidence that supports your claim that the Dutch standard of living is being significantly eroded because of brown people. [1] http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas/bevolking/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2012/2012-011-pb.htm http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas/bevolking/publicaties/ar... [2] http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/Download/Population__origin_250413021841.html http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/Download/Population__origin_2... [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/opinion/the-beneficial-impact-of-immigrants.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/opinion/the-beneficial-imp...
- Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
  What you call xenophobic, others call noticing what is right in front of their noses.
  - kintamanimatt 14y ago
    Could it be confirmation bias?
    - Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
      Stereotypes don’t materialize out of thin air. If they did that you’d see a more random distribution of competing stereotypes.
      - kintamanimatt 14y ago
        Stereotypes don't appear out of thin air, but they aren't independently formed either; they get taught and passed on by parents and peers. Confirmation bias also plays a role in perpetuating them too. After all, if you hold the belief that women are bad drivers, did you independently come to this conclusion based on an accurate assessment of driving skill and gender, or did you hear "ha, women drivers!" over and over as a kid and subsequently see every mistake a woman driver made and mutter to yourself, "ha, women drivers!"?
        Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
        The image of the immigrant as invariably hard-working, noble, and law-abiding gets taught and passed along too, not by parents and peers but by business interests seeking cheap labor and political parties seeking permanent dominance by means of electing a new people. When you label something as confirmation bias, make sure you're looking through the right end of the telescope.
- wsc981 14y ago
  Reasons why these kinds of people put so much pressure on our welfare and health systems are partly because they have so much trouble integrating into our society. Part of the problem is, as I've explained, our own government that didn't spread immigrants around country but allowed them to live close to one another. Now we have closed badly integrated societies ("ghettos") in some of our bigger and even smaller cities. One city where this problem with especially the Marrocan population is very clear is Gouda, but the same kinds of problems exist in Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, etc... Criminality among (especially) boys of Moroccan descent is disproportionate with regards to the size of the population: [0]: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2624/moroccan-crime-netherlands http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2624/moroccan-crime-nether... We've imported a lot of berber people from Morocco. Within the berber culture a lot of marriages happen between closely related family members, resulting in a worse gene pool. This could be partly the cause for the berber immigrants health issues. The following articles might be of interest to you: [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC449726/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC449726/ [2]: http://books.google.nl/books?id=HDIa0tyllqgC&lpg=PA455&ots=1pQCBkSczs&dq=berber%20genetic%20disorder&hl=nl&pg=PA455#v=onepage&q=berber%20genetic%20disorder&f=false http://books.google.nl/books?id=HDIa0tyllqgC&lpg=PA455&#... In the end I don't think multicultural societies can really exist. There needs to be a leading culture and people should be encouraged to adopt (parts of) the leading culture or blend it with their own culture. Without a leading culture the social cohesion slowly erodes. And this is why I think Switzerland made a very wise decision in limiting immigration. Immigrants need time to integrate and the society should be able to deal with the strain of the immigrants until they're well integrated, otherwise it results in "dweilen met de kraan open."

by wsc981 14y ago

anigbrowl 14y ago

It takes a few generations for these things to work themselves out. I imagine the former Dutch colonies would have preferred a more limited subjugation as well, but you can't always have what you want.

kintamanimatt 14y ago

This is really quite xenophobic. The majority of migration is going to be from the EU [1], and despite Europe's integration by way of treaties, I'm under the impression that someone fresh off the boat (metaphorically speaking) can't just suddenly claim all the welfare there is. Immigrants from non-EU countries have to be able to show their ability to support themselves before they're granted a visa, so I highly doubt they're a huge burden on society too. Only something like 2.16% of population is from Morocco [2] and I really doubt they're the result of society's ills. While I can't find statistics, I highly doubt these people are draining the country's coffers through welfare payments. Also, why do you think they're constantly seeking health care? Even if they are, you seem to be saying they're unnecessarily visiting the doctor and are hypochondriacs; again, I struggle to understand why this would be the case just because they're from the middle east. Do you have any statistics available that demonstrate middle-eastern immigrants visit their GP more than born and bred Dutch, and are feigning illness? (I'm not saying it's untrue, I just can't find anything to support or refute your claim.) The thing with the freedom of movement provisions is it works both ways: the Dutch are just as able to leave and move to another EU nation as other EU nationals are able to move to the Netherlands. Quite a good number of Dutch emigrate both to within and outside the EU, which is fair and fine. Immigration, at least in the US, can be argued to have quite a positive effect on society. [3] I see no reason for this not to apply to the Netherlands. What your argument really seems to boil down to is that there are people from a different tribe that are living among your tribe and, by way of confirmation bias, you notice all the things they do wrong. No society is perfect and not all immigrants are going to integrate into society or be a net benefit, but many more will be. Relatively speaking, the Netherlands has its shit together and I fail to see any evidence that supports your claim that the Dutch standard of living is being significantly eroded because of brown people. [1] http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas/bevolking/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2012/2012-011-pb.htm http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas/bevolking/publicaties/ar... [2] http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/Download/Population__origin_250413021841.html http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/Download/Population__origin_2... [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/opinion/the-beneficial-impact-of-immigrants.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/opinion/the-beneficial-imp...

Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
What you call xenophobic, others call noticing what is right in front of their noses.
- kintamanimatt 14y ago
  Could it be confirmation bias?
  - Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
    Stereotypes don’t materialize out of thin air. If they did that you’d see a more random distribution of competing stereotypes.
    - kintamanimatt 14y ago
      Stereotypes don't appear out of thin air, but they aren't independently formed either; they get taught and passed on by parents and peers. Confirmation bias also plays a role in perpetuating them too. After all, if you hold the belief that women are bad drivers, did you independently come to this conclusion based on an accurate assessment of driving skill and gender, or did you hear "ha, women drivers!" over and over as a kid and subsequently see every mistake a woman driver made and mutter to yourself, "ha, women drivers!"?
      - Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
        The image of the immigrant as invariably hard-working, noble, and law-abiding gets taught and passed along too, not by parents and peers but by business interests seeking cheap labor and political parties seeking permanent dominance by means of electing a new people. When you label something as confirmation bias, make sure you're looking through the right end of the telescope.
wsc981 14y ago
Reasons why these kinds of people put so much pressure on our welfare and health systems are partly because they have so much trouble integrating into our society. Part of the problem is, as I've explained, our own government that didn't spread immigrants around country but allowed them to live close to one another. Now we have closed badly integrated societies ("ghettos") in some of our bigger and even smaller cities. One city where this problem with especially the Marrocan population is very clear is Gouda, but the same kinds of problems exist in Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, etc... Criminality among (especially) boys of Moroccan descent is disproportionate with regards to the size of the population: [0]: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2624/moroccan-crime-netherlands http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2624/moroccan-crime-nether... We've imported a lot of berber people from Morocco. Within the berber culture a lot of marriages happen between closely related family members, resulting in a worse gene pool. This could be partly the cause for the berber immigrants health issues. The following articles might be of interest to you: [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC449726/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC449726/ [2]: http://books.google.nl/books?id=HDIa0tyllqgC&lpg=PA455&ots=1pQCBkSczs&dq=berber%20genetic%20disorder&hl=nl&pg=PA455#v=onepage&q=berber%20genetic%20disorder&f=false http://books.google.nl/books?id=HDIa0tyllqgC&lpg=PA455&#... In the end I don't think multicultural societies can really exist. There needs to be a leading culture and people should be encouraged to adopt (parts of) the leading culture or blend it with their own culture. Without a leading culture the social cohesion slowly erodes. And this is why I think Switzerland made a very wise decision in limiting immigration. Immigrants need time to integrate and the society should be able to deal with the strain of the immigrants until they're well integrated, otherwise it results in "dweilen met de kraan open."