5 ms·

I'm a Swiss citizen living in San Francisco, and while I don't necessarily agree with restrictive immigration policies (I'm in the process on getting a US green

by SeoxyS 14y ago

I'm a Swiss citizen living in San Francisco, and while I don't necessarily agree with restrictive immigration policies (I'm in the process on getting a US green card – don't get me started on how stressful that is), I also don't see anything particularly wrong with it either. Immigration in Switzerland is a big issue. Switzerland is tiny and is getting a little over-crowded. We don't have mega-cities, real estate prices are through the roof, and new building permits are very restricted due to regulation meant to preserve Switzerland's beautiful old cities. When I grew up, Switzerland's population was 7 million. Now it's 8. That almost 9% growth. The country hasn't gotten any bigger, though. While there benefits to diversifying our culture, and bringing in skilled workers to contribute to the economy; the average immigrant is probably a net detriment to the country, because an influx of people puts a strain on Switzerland's public services and its real estate market (Y'all think San Francisco rents are bad? Try renting an apartment in Zurich!). If you believe in the principle behind countries (a group of people coming together to form a society that, like Capitalism, does what is in its best interest), then you should understand the decision. If not, well, that's an entirely different argument. Personally, I'd like immigration to be merit based. Ie., immigrants would have to demonstrate that they'd be a net asset to the country, in some fashion.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
guelo 14y ago
Sounds like you agree with immigration only when it benefits you personally.
- SeoxyS 14y ago
  I agree with immigration when it benefits the country. It's like when you hire an employee for your company: you're only going to go through with it if the transaction is mutually beneficial (keeping in mind the associated costs), which from your vantage point means that it must benefit your company. Immigration is the same thing, at a larger scale.
  - guelo 14y ago
    San Franciscans can (and do) make all your same arguments against you moving here: the city is small and getting over-crowded, real-estate prices are going through the roof, etc. But San Francisco, like Switzerland, is part of a larger economy which benefits from freedom of movement.
    - Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
      You sure are excited about this economy stuff. It's as though you think that people exist to serve the economy rather than the other way around. I hope nobody points out to you that per capita income would go up if we gassed all the old folks and cripples.
      - guelo 14y ago
        You mean the economy that attracted SeoxyS to move half across the world?
        Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
        I mean the economy for which we must all bend ourselves into pretzel shapes.
- Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
  Only an idiot or an ideologue promotes a particular policy even though he knows that it would harm him.
  - epsylon 14y ago
    So Warren Buffet and Bill Gates are idiots or ideologues? http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125918497 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1259184...
    - Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
      Neither. Advocating that taxes be raised serves to increase their status, just as catapulting buckets of money in the generally direction of irredeemably corrupt African countries does. Biologists refer to such behavior as a "display of fitness," like a peacock's feathers or the way some tribal chieftains compete with each other to see who can give away the most stuff. We crave status more than we do money or even sex. Besides, in this case their lawyers and lobbyists will see to it that they actually never will have to pay much extra to Uncle Sugar. In the end, the only people who will feel the bite of tax hikes will be ordinary people, and nobody cares about them.
  - guelo 14y ago
    Sure, you can be a cynical selfish asshole when promoting public policy. But it's not a very good argument when trying to convince others.
    - Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
      Gotta love that false consciousness.
- general_failure 14y ago
  When else does it make sense ?
jcfrei 14y ago
The argument about increasing rents is one I've heard quite a few times however correlation and causation are not entirely clear (this blog goes into more detail: http://politblog.tagesanzeiger.ch/blog/index.php/tag/miete/?lang=de http://politblog.tagesanzeiger.ch/blog/index.php/tag/miete/?... (in german)). on top of that the available land for building would be more than sufficient for 8 mil. and more people. take a look at singapore, which is half the size of the canton of zurich but has three times more inhabitants (5.3 mil.). needless to say we would need to revise a lot of the very restrictive building codes here. Anyway, the whole discussion about immigration really becomes absurd when you consider that most immigrants are not unskilled, minimum wage workers, but mostly highly skilled professionals. in some areas our economy is in desperate need of those professionals - for example in the health care sector - and dismissing those professionals would be the really foolish thing to do.
- waps 14y ago
  That only makes sense unless you take into account how people are living in Singapore. 5 people to an apartment is not an exception there. Couples that don't have the money and have to share the SAME ROOM with other people is not rare. Just imagine building a future with someone you care about, or having a child, or just even finding someone at all in that environment. I for one would consider it a very positive trait of a city to NOT be like Singapore. I do not want to live like that, and when prices hit a certain level you have no choice left. "most immigrants are not unskilled, minimum wage workers" - I can only respond with "visit Brussels". They have a very positive trait - they're much more likely to start a business (though almost always either an eatery or a food store). Enough is enough though. After a certain amount of stores - everything just starts to fail, and everyone moves to welfare. And yes, a small amount of immigrants is definitely enriching. The way it is happening in Brussels it brings zero diversity (there's only 99% morrocan, 99% turkish, 99% dutch 99% french quarters with zero interaction between them - aside from crime. Kids go to separate schools, and in the few cases they do go to similar schools - they still don't interact - everyone knows why but it's politically incorrect - it's violence-enforced racism by a particular non-white religious group, although ethnicity also plays). The way it is now, immigration in Brussels is nothing but a massive drag on a city that just can't take it. I heard about one study claiming that the average economic benefit for the EU of one immigrant is about MINUS 10k euros per year. I think that's probably pretty accurate.
zik 14y ago
> When I grew up, Switzerland's population was 7 million. Now it's 8. That almost 9% growth. Switzerland's projected population growth for 2000-2050 is 1.8%. Just for comparison Australia's population growth over the same period is 28.9%. Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Australia/Switzerland/People http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Australia/Switzerland/Pe...

by SeoxyS 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

guelo 14y ago

Sounds like you agree with immigration only when it benefits you personally.

SeoxyS 14y ago
I agree with immigration when it benefits the country. It's like when you hire an employee for your company: you're only going to go through with it if the transaction is mutually beneficial (keeping in mind the associated costs), which from your vantage point means that it must benefit your company. Immigration is the same thing, at a larger scale.
- guelo 14y ago
  San Franciscans can (and do) make all your same arguments against you moving here: the city is small and getting over-crowded, real-estate prices are going through the roof, etc. But San Francisco, like Switzerland, is part of a larger economy which benefits from freedom of movement.
  - Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
    You sure are excited about this economy stuff. It's as though you think that people exist to serve the economy rather than the other way around. I hope nobody points out to you that per capita income would go up if we gassed all the old folks and cripples.
    - guelo 14y ago
      You mean the economy that attracted SeoxyS to move half across the world?
      - Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
        I mean the economy for which we must all bend ourselves into pretzel shapes.
Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
Only an idiot or an ideologue promotes a particular policy even though he knows that it would harm him.
- epsylon 14y ago
  So Warren Buffet and Bill Gates are idiots or ideologues? http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125918497 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1259184...
  - Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
    Neither. Advocating that taxes be raised serves to increase their status, just as catapulting buckets of money in the generally direction of irredeemably corrupt African countries does. Biologists refer to such behavior as a "display of fitness," like a peacock's feathers or the way some tribal chieftains compete with each other to see who can give away the most stuff. We crave status more than we do money or even sex. Besides, in this case their lawyers and lobbyists will see to it that they actually never will have to pay much extra to Uncle Sugar. In the end, the only people who will feel the bite of tax hikes will be ordinary people, and nobody cares about them.
- guelo 14y ago
  Sure, you can be a cynical selfish asshole when promoting public policy. But it's not a very good argument when trying to convince others.
  - Kudzu_Bob 14y ago
    Gotta love that false consciousness.
general_failure 14y ago
When else does it make sense ?

jcfrei 14y ago

The argument about increasing rents is one I've heard quite a few times however correlation and causation are not entirely clear (this blog goes into more detail: http://politblog.tagesanzeiger.ch/blog/index.php/tag/miete/?lang=de http://politblog.tagesanzeiger.ch/blog/index.php/tag/miete/?... (in german)). on top of that the available land for building would be more than sufficient for 8 mil. and more people. take a look at singapore, which is half the size of the canton of zurich but has three times more inhabitants (5.3 mil.). needless to say we would need to revise a lot of the very restrictive building codes here. Anyway, the whole discussion about immigration really becomes absurd when you consider that most immigrants are not unskilled, minimum wage workers, but mostly highly skilled professionals. in some areas our economy is in desperate need of those professionals - for example in the health care sector - and dismissing those professionals would be the really foolish thing to do.

waps 14y ago
That only makes sense unless you take into account how people are living in Singapore. 5 people to an apartment is not an exception there. Couples that don't have the money and have to share the SAME ROOM with other people is not rare. Just imagine building a future with someone you care about, or having a child, or just even finding someone at all in that environment. I for one would consider it a very positive trait of a city to NOT be like Singapore. I do not want to live like that, and when prices hit a certain level you have no choice left. "most immigrants are not unskilled, minimum wage workers" - I can only respond with "visit Brussels". They have a very positive trait - they're much more likely to start a business (though almost always either an eatery or a food store). Enough is enough though. After a certain amount of stores - everything just starts to fail, and everyone moves to welfare. And yes, a small amount of immigrants is definitely enriching. The way it is happening in Brussels it brings zero diversity (there's only 99% morrocan, 99% turkish, 99% dutch 99% french quarters with zero interaction between them - aside from crime. Kids go to separate schools, and in the few cases they do go to similar schools - they still don't interact - everyone knows why but it's politically incorrect - it's violence-enforced racism by a particular non-white religious group, although ethnicity also plays). The way it is now, immigration in Brussels is nothing but a massive drag on a city that just can't take it. I heard about one study claiming that the average economic benefit for the EU of one immigrant is about MINUS 10k euros per year. I think that's probably pretty accurate.

zik 14y ago

> When I grew up, Switzerland's population was 7 million. Now it's 8. That almost 9% growth. Switzerland's projected population growth for 2000-2050 is 1.8%. Just for comparison Australia's population growth over the same period is 28.9%. Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Australia/Switzerland/People http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Australia/Switzerland/Pe...