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As touching as the story may be, it is not that different from billions of other children who are starving right now, all over India, China and African continen

As touching as the story may be, it is not that different from billions of other children who are starving right now, all over India, China and African continent. I find it amusing that how we Americans love to bash North Korea and Iran. Does anyone know, that the Indian Government (under pressure from the World Bank to reduce poverty) just lowered the poverty line? According to the new poverty line, anyone who makes more than about 0.50 USD is not poor. By lowering the poverty line, they brought down the number of poor people in India from 42% to 35%. 66% of people in India live on less than 2 USD per day, in conditions similar to those in which the author lived. And India in not under any sanctions, or trade embargoes.

threeseed 13y ago
Exactly. I was in North Korea early this year and even in the rural outskirts it isn't comparable to the poverty you see in Africa. I guess Africa just isn't interesting enough.
- devilshaircut 13y ago
  I don't understand either of the prior two comments. The article clearly wasn't written to garner sympathy, rather, to retell a personal experience that is likely foreign to most people, given the cloistered nature of North Korean society. As though only the most tragic stories possible are worth telling? Please.
  - zapdrive 13y ago
    I read an article on HN a while ago, about a guy who escaped from a North Korean prison camp. That shed light on something that we don't know much about. Now that was some escape. He is the only person to have ever escaped a North Korean prison camp. Again, as I said, the author did go through a lot of difficulties in her childhood. But in my opinion, this article is on the front page of HN, only because its about North Korea. Thousands of other people "escape" poverty and inhumane living conditions to reach US/Western countries from all over the world every year.
    - devilshaircut 13y ago
      So the story is not good enough because it doesn't involve prison and violence? So she should just keep her story to herself because it isn't as action-packed? I can't say how much I disagree with this. People should share their stories, even if they are totally mundane. I also feel like you totally disregarded the content of her Q&A which gave many people the opportunity to get insight on the conditions inside of North Korea's closed society.
    - coldtea 13y ago
      >I read an article on HN a while ago, about a guy who escaped from a North Korean prison camp. That shed light on something that we don't know much about. Without any corroboration I wouldn't believe that story 100%. Especially in an era when said country is in the spotlight as an enemy. As war correspondent and write Philip Knightley wrote: "The first casualty of any war is the truth". The same holds true for any coverage of a place where diplomatic animosity and/or state interests come into play. http://www.amazon.com/First-Casualty-Phillip-Knightley/dp/1853753769 http://www.amazon.com/First-Casualty-Phillip-Knightley/dp/18...
      - twoodfin 13y ago
        Which specific aspects of the popular account of the North Korean regime do you dispute, so we can be sure to give you full credit when you're proven correct?
        coldtea 13y ago
        Most of it. Sounds like soapy BS for the American public, in preparation for the next targeted enemy.
      - nandemo 13y ago
        By now there are tens of thousands of North Korean defectors living in South Korea and elsewhere. That includes others ex-prisoners (not necessarily escapees, some people are released after all). There's also satellite imagery that corroborates some of the defectors' descriptions. There's also testimony from ex-party officials and even from people who knew the Kim family, confirming that people were imprisoned or executed for thoughtcrimes. Not to mention all the evidence from "regular" North Koreans who lived outside Pyongyang.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >I don't understand either of the prior two comments. The article clearly wasn't written to garner sympathy, rather, to retell a personal experience that is likely foreign to most people, given the cloistered nature of North Korean society. It's not about the article. It's about the curation. That is, the way whole clusters of articles on similar topics (for a few select countries etc) are selected, printed, submitted, promoted by the media, etc, as opposed to tons of others about different countries.
- ubersync 13y ago
  And if you go to some parts of India, its even worse than Africa. People don't have access to clean water, sanitation and food. Some people walk 25 miles a day, to fetch clean water to drink.
- ams6110 13y ago
  If you had been there in the height of the famines in the 1990s you might have a different perspective.
- mikeash 13y ago
  Were you allowed to move freely and choose what places to visit without restrictions? I've not heard of anyone being able to do that, and without that, you can't trust what you saw to be in any way representative.
ubersync 13y ago
Two Indian students tried to test the new poverty line set up by the Indian Government. They tried to live on 0.65 USD a day. Here is the story. Its an interesting read. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15542957 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15542957
cinquemb 13y ago
Kind of reminds me of the re-adjustment of BLS statistics q/q and y/y that are then touted as improvements.
bhaile 13y ago
Having been in a couple of countries in Africa and India, I agree. However the plight of starvation should continue to be raised (not saying you are minimizing the story) and stories like this add a human element to it beyond the statistics. It helps me to take a step back from the tech lifestyle during my day.
mseebach 13y ago
North Korea isn't interesting because of its poverty, but because of its grindingly oppressive government.
coldtea 13y ago
>As touching as the story may be, it is not that different from billions of other children who are starving right now, all over India, China and African continent. I find it amusing that how we Americans love to bash North Korea and Iran. Well, North Korea is "communist" and Iran has oil resources and threatens some of our allies in the area. If it was a starving population, with a regime that's just as oppressive or even more, but are US allies and offer their natural resources for a pittance, then not only would the US would like them, but they would also get guns and support. Like all those dictatorships in Latin America. Or Saudi Arabia. Etc...
- zapdrive 13y ago
  This is exactly the point I am trying to make, that other people here are not understanding. When we went into Iraq, we had three reasons: 1) It has weapons of mass destruction. 2) It has ties with terrorist organisations (Al Qaeda), and 3) It's a dictatorship. Well, the first 2 turned out to be wrong. But, at the exact same moment in time, all 3 were relevant to Pakistan. 1) It had proven nuclear weapons, 2) It had proven terrorist training camps, and links to Al Qaeda (Where did we find Osama?) and 3) It was under dictatorship. So, why Iraq and not Pakistan?
  - ams6110 13y ago
    Your reasons are wrong. There are many countries that meet those criteria.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    Not to mention that "having a dictatorship" is not reason at all to invade a sovereign nation. It's up for the people of the country to solve the problem themselves. (Especially if that dictatorship was your old ally, which you helped back in the Iran-Iraq war era, when the US gave guns to Saddam). Even worse, since, now, there is a unsolvable chaos of civil war and terrorism, much worse than the Saddam regime situation for the average citizen.
  - torkins 13y ago
    The point you made was that India et al are bad too, so why are we judgmental Westerners always harping on North Korea. North Korea is a grotesque among nations, reminding the Western observer more of dystopian, cautionary literature more than a nation-state in the modern era. It has a theocracy founded on a religion invented by its reigning family, it has profound poverty, it is militant and provocative in a way that overshadows even Iran. Especially recently this is the case, with North Korea making nuclear threats against its neighbor and the United States which we know are backed up with at least some know-how. It engages in such bizarro control measures to keep its population as isolated as possible from the rest of the world. It couldn't be more clear to most why it is a country of focus for the international community.
sultezdukes 13y ago
I find it amusing that how we Americans love to bash North Korea and Iran. So what are you saying? That everybody else isn't privy to your insight about India, China, and Africa? So you don't see something unique about the regimes in N. Korea and Iran? I found your comment pretty amusing in the same way you found "Americans bashing North Korea and Iran" "amusing".
torkins 13y ago
India simply does not belong in the same group as North Korea, Iran, or even China. Fundamentally, whether it struggles with poverty or not, it is a democracy, not a totalitarian regime. Indian citizens vote in elections and enjoy the freedom of movement. Unlike North Korea and Iran, it is not a theocracy. Having a huge population and struggling with poverty is not grounds to damn them into the same ignominious group as you have done.
- zapdrive 13y ago
  > it is a democracy I would beg to differ. During the 65 years of its independence, Federal government in India has remained under the control of one single family (the Gandhi family). Being the "biggest democracy" is just a farce. Similarly, most of the state governments are under the control of a select few families. > Indian citizens vote in elections and enjoy the freedom of movement Not really. They are not allowed to protest. The Indian police has the right to use force against peaceful protestors, which it often uses. Google "lathicharge" and you will know what I am talking about. There is a huge lack of education, and in my opinion, giving someone the right to vote without the right to education doesn't mean anything. You can easily buy votes for $10.00 each. There are reports that trillions of dollars equivalent of Indian money is stashed in offshore banks by Indian politicians. Hardly a week goes by before you hear about a multi-billion dollar scam. Some economists have argued that if all that money is brought back and distributed, every one would get around a 1000 USD, which is a lot in a country where 66% make less than 2 USD a day. Unlike North Korea, India does have the money to feed its poor. But it never gets to the poor. Update: I failed to mention, that the government can "acquire" your land for pennies, anytime they want. This is what's happening in central India, where the govt. is taking away the land of people and giving it away to multinationals for mining. And there are no human rights, whatsoever in India. The police detains and tortures people all the time. Actually that is the only investigation technique they have: detain a few suspects and beat them until one confesses, regardless whether he/she actually committed the crime.
  - torkins 13y ago
    I wouldn't argue that it is a modern Western democracy, a great place to live or a place of reasonable social equality. However, Indians do have the fundamental right to move about India and to leave India without special permission. It may be a meaningless right for those unable to convey themselves out of India (true for the abject poor in any nation), but it fundamentally separates India from Iran, North Korea, China, etc. Not every place that has injustice is the same. There are gradations, and drawing equivalencies between places that are not the same only makes legitimate critiques less so. I think you have a lot of good points about India, and my reply was not to say they are invalid. I just don't think it is helpful or correct to compare them to theocracies and dictatorships.
mikeash 13y ago
Do entire families get imprisoned for the political "crimes" of a single individual in India, China, and Africa? That's the sort of thing that gets people's attention when it comes to North Korea (that, and acting all crazy while having a relatively huge military), not the sadly mundane poverty.
tptacek 13y ago
This story isn't that worse than the story of any other starving child. This story didn't take place in a concentration camp where a six year old girl was beaten repeatedly over the head for stealing five kernels of corn until she hemorrhaged to death. The people in this story didn't talk about how being beaten to death for stealing corn was just punishment. Nobody in this story was knocked unconscious by a hail of rocks thrown from prison guards. Nobody hung any 12 years olds from a ceiling in this story and then winched them down over burning charcoal to get them to "confess" their crimes, or watched their mother hung to death thinking she deserved to die. But all of those things did happen, in another recent story about North Korea, the worst country on the planet.
asimeqi 13y ago
The part that makes this story different from the other stories about starving children is that the girl in this story was the daughter of a doctor. Where else do you find a doctor's children starving but in North Korea? We Americans don't speak nearly enough about the suffering of North Korean people. As someone who grew up in the second worst communist dictatorship in the world I can say that the worst part about living in such a country is not lack of food or shoes or clothes and not even lack of freedom. The worst part is lack of future. Their system is totally frozen. Nothing moves. Most of the work that is done is just for the sake of appearing like people are working. Every intelligent person looks around and sees that something needs to be done to change the situation but nobody knows what to do, let alone find the courage to actually do something. It has been 23 years since I lived in a similar situation and I still feel out of breath thinking about it. If the North Korean regime falls today we are likely to witness one of the worst humanitarian crisis we have ever seen. We can just hope that the current North Korean leaders find both the desire and the ability to do a transformation like China did in the 70's. U.S. played a large part in that transformation and it could play a large part in helping North Korea too.

threeseed 13y ago

Exactly. I was in North Korea early this year and even in the rural outskirts it isn't comparable to the poverty you see in Africa. I guess Africa just isn't interesting enough.

devilshaircut 13y ago
I don't understand either of the prior two comments. The article clearly wasn't written to garner sympathy, rather, to retell a personal experience that is likely foreign to most people, given the cloistered nature of North Korean society. As though only the most tragic stories possible are worth telling? Please.
- zapdrive 13y ago
  I read an article on HN a while ago, about a guy who escaped from a North Korean prison camp. That shed light on something that we don't know much about. Now that was some escape. He is the only person to have ever escaped a North Korean prison camp. Again, as I said, the author did go through a lot of difficulties in her childhood. But in my opinion, this article is on the front page of HN, only because its about North Korea. Thousands of other people "escape" poverty and inhumane living conditions to reach US/Western countries from all over the world every year.
  - devilshaircut 13y ago
    So the story is not good enough because it doesn't involve prison and violence? So she should just keep her story to herself because it isn't as action-packed? I can't say how much I disagree with this. People should share their stories, even if they are totally mundane. I also feel like you totally disregarded the content of her Q&A which gave many people the opportunity to get insight on the conditions inside of North Korea's closed society.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >I read an article on HN a while ago, about a guy who escaped from a North Korean prison camp. That shed light on something that we don't know much about. Without any corroboration I wouldn't believe that story 100%. Especially in an era when said country is in the spotlight as an enemy. As war correspondent and write Philip Knightley wrote: "The first casualty of any war is the truth". The same holds true for any coverage of a place where diplomatic animosity and/or state interests come into play. http://www.amazon.com/First-Casualty-Phillip-Knightley/dp/1853753769 http://www.amazon.com/First-Casualty-Phillip-Knightley/dp/18...
    - twoodfin 13y ago
      Which specific aspects of the popular account of the North Korean regime do you dispute, so we can be sure to give you full credit when you're proven correct?
      - coldtea 13y ago
        Most of it. Sounds like soapy BS for the American public, in preparation for the next targeted enemy.
    - nandemo 13y ago
      By now there are tens of thousands of North Korean defectors living in South Korea and elsewhere. That includes others ex-prisoners (not necessarily escapees, some people are released after all). There's also satellite imagery that corroborates some of the defectors' descriptions. There's also testimony from ex-party officials and even from people who knew the Kim family, confirming that people were imprisoned or executed for thoughtcrimes. Not to mention all the evidence from "regular" North Koreans who lived outside Pyongyang.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >I don't understand either of the prior two comments. The article clearly wasn't written to garner sympathy, rather, to retell a personal experience that is likely foreign to most people, given the cloistered nature of North Korean society. It's not about the article. It's about the curation. That is, the way whole clusters of articles on similar topics (for a few select countries etc) are selected, printed, submitted, promoted by the media, etc, as opposed to tons of others about different countries.
ubersync 13y ago
And if you go to some parts of India, its even worse than Africa. People don't have access to clean water, sanitation and food. Some people walk 25 miles a day, to fetch clean water to drink.
ams6110 13y ago
If you had been there in the height of the famines in the 1990s you might have a different perspective.
mikeash 13y ago
Were you allowed to move freely and choose what places to visit without restrictions? I've not heard of anyone being able to do that, and without that, you can't trust what you saw to be in any way representative.

ubersync 13y ago

Two Indian students tried to test the new poverty line set up by the Indian Government. They tried to live on 0.65 USD a day. Here is the story. Its an interesting read. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15542957 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15542957

cinquemb 13y ago

Kind of reminds me of the re-adjustment of BLS statistics q/q and y/y that are then touted as improvements.

bhaile 13y ago

Having been in a couple of countries in Africa and India, I agree. However the plight of starvation should continue to be raised (not saying you are minimizing the story) and stories like this add a human element to it beyond the statistics. It helps me to take a step back from the tech lifestyle during my day.

mseebach 13y ago

North Korea isn't interesting because of its poverty, but because of its grindingly oppressive government.

coldtea 13y ago

>As touching as the story may be, it is not that different from billions of other children who are starving right now, all over India, China and African continent. I find it amusing that how we Americans love to bash North Korea and Iran. Well, North Korea is "communist" and Iran has oil resources and threatens some of our allies in the area. If it was a starving population, with a regime that's just as oppressive or even more, but are US allies and offer their natural resources for a pittance, then not only would the US would like them, but they would also get guns and support. Like all those dictatorships in Latin America. Or Saudi Arabia. Etc...

zapdrive 13y ago
This is exactly the point I am trying to make, that other people here are not understanding. When we went into Iraq, we had three reasons: 1) It has weapons of mass destruction. 2) It has ties with terrorist organisations (Al Qaeda), and 3) It's a dictatorship. Well, the first 2 turned out to be wrong. But, at the exact same moment in time, all 3 were relevant to Pakistan. 1) It had proven nuclear weapons, 2) It had proven terrorist training camps, and links to Al Qaeda (Where did we find Osama?) and 3) It was under dictatorship. So, why Iraq and not Pakistan?
- ams6110 13y ago
  Your reasons are wrong. There are many countries that meet those criteria.
- coldtea 13y ago
  Not to mention that "having a dictatorship" is not reason at all to invade a sovereign nation. It's up for the people of the country to solve the problem themselves. (Especially if that dictatorship was your old ally, which you helped back in the Iran-Iraq war era, when the US gave guns to Saddam). Even worse, since, now, there is a unsolvable chaos of civil war and terrorism, much worse than the Saddam regime situation for the average citizen.
- torkins 13y ago
  The point you made was that India et al are bad too, so why are we judgmental Westerners always harping on North Korea. North Korea is a grotesque among nations, reminding the Western observer more of dystopian, cautionary literature more than a nation-state in the modern era. It has a theocracy founded on a religion invented by its reigning family, it has profound poverty, it is militant and provocative in a way that overshadows even Iran. Especially recently this is the case, with North Korea making nuclear threats against its neighbor and the United States which we know are backed up with at least some know-how. It engages in such bizarro control measures to keep its population as isolated as possible from the rest of the world. It couldn't be more clear to most why it is a country of focus for the international community.

sultezdukes 13y ago

I find it amusing that how we Americans love to bash North Korea and Iran. So what are you saying? That everybody else isn't privy to your insight about India, China, and Africa? So you don't see something unique about the regimes in N. Korea and Iran? I found your comment pretty amusing in the same way you found "Americans bashing North Korea and Iran" "amusing".

torkins 13y ago

India simply does not belong in the same group as North Korea, Iran, or even China. Fundamentally, whether it struggles with poverty or not, it is a democracy, not a totalitarian regime. Indian citizens vote in elections and enjoy the freedom of movement. Unlike North Korea and Iran, it is not a theocracy. Having a huge population and struggling with poverty is not grounds to damn them into the same ignominious group as you have done.

zapdrive 13y ago
> it is a democracy I would beg to differ. During the 65 years of its independence, Federal government in India has remained under the control of one single family (the Gandhi family). Being the "biggest democracy" is just a farce. Similarly, most of the state governments are under the control of a select few families. > Indian citizens vote in elections and enjoy the freedom of movement Not really. They are not allowed to protest. The Indian police has the right to use force against peaceful protestors, which it often uses. Google "lathicharge" and you will know what I am talking about. There is a huge lack of education, and in my opinion, giving someone the right to vote without the right to education doesn't mean anything. You can easily buy votes for $10.00 each. There are reports that trillions of dollars equivalent of Indian money is stashed in offshore banks by Indian politicians. Hardly a week goes by before you hear about a multi-billion dollar scam. Some economists have argued that if all that money is brought back and distributed, every one would get around a 1000 USD, which is a lot in a country where 66% make less than 2 USD a day. Unlike North Korea, India does have the money to feed its poor. But it never gets to the poor. Update: I failed to mention, that the government can "acquire" your land for pennies, anytime they want. This is what's happening in central India, where the govt. is taking away the land of people and giving it away to multinationals for mining. And there are no human rights, whatsoever in India. The police detains and tortures people all the time. Actually that is the only investigation technique they have: detain a few suspects and beat them until one confesses, regardless whether he/she actually committed the crime.
- torkins 13y ago
  I wouldn't argue that it is a modern Western democracy, a great place to live or a place of reasonable social equality. However, Indians do have the fundamental right to move about India and to leave India without special permission. It may be a meaningless right for those unable to convey themselves out of India (true for the abject poor in any nation), but it fundamentally separates India from Iran, North Korea, China, etc. Not every place that has injustice is the same. There are gradations, and drawing equivalencies between places that are not the same only makes legitimate critiques less so. I think you have a lot of good points about India, and my reply was not to say they are invalid. I just don't think it is helpful or correct to compare them to theocracies and dictatorships.

mikeash 13y ago

Do entire families get imprisoned for the political "crimes" of a single individual in India, China, and Africa? That's the sort of thing that gets people's attention when it comes to North Korea (that, and acting all crazy while having a relatively huge military), not the sadly mundane poverty.

tptacek 13y ago

This story isn't that worse than the story of any other starving child. This story didn't take place in a concentration camp where a six year old girl was beaten repeatedly over the head for stealing five kernels of corn until she hemorrhaged to death. The people in this story didn't talk about how being beaten to death for stealing corn was just punishment. Nobody in this story was knocked unconscious by a hail of rocks thrown from prison guards. Nobody hung any 12 years olds from a ceiling in this story and then winched them down over burning charcoal to get them to "confess" their crimes, or watched their mother hung to death thinking she deserved to die. But all of those things did happen, in another recent story about North Korea, the worst country on the planet.

asimeqi 13y ago

The part that makes this story different from the other stories about starving children is that the girl in this story was the daughter of a doctor. Where else do you find a doctor's children starving but in North Korea? We Americans don't speak nearly enough about the suffering of North Korean people. As someone who grew up in the second worst communist dictatorship in the world I can say that the worst part about living in such a country is not lack of food or shoes or clothes and not even lack of freedom. The worst part is lack of future. Their system is totally frozen. Nothing moves. Most of the work that is done is just for the sake of appearing like people are working. Every intelligent person looks around and sees that something needs to be done to change the situation but nobody knows what to do, let alone find the courage to actually do something. It has been 23 years since I lived in a similar situation and I still feel out of breath thinking about it. If the North Korean regime falls today we are likely to witness one of the worst humanitarian crisis we have ever seen. We can just hope that the current North Korean leaders find both the desire and the ability to do a transformation like China did in the 70's. U.S. played a large part in that transformation and it could play a large part in helping North Korea too.