8 ms·

You don't get it - the parent's point is that your argument doesn't explain why Asians take a much bigger hit than whites. "Asian applicants have 67% lower odd

You don't get it - the parent's point is that your argument doesn't explain why Asians take a much bigger hit than whites. "Asian applicants have 67% lower odds of admission than white applicants with comparable test scores."

wfunction 14y ago
What's the Asian to White ratio of qualified college applicants? i.e. are there more Whites or Asians who would be accepted based on factors other than their race? If it's > 1, then obviously Asians will take a bigger hit, since they're the majority, that's the whole point of my comment. If it's <= 1 though then yes, the situation is very interesting indeed.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - wfunction 14y ago
    > Asians comprise < 5% of the US population, so the first option strikes me as highly unlikely. It doesn't strike me as highly unlikely. Asians tend to have much higher education levels than Whites: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0229.pdf http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0229.p...
- wchou 14y ago
  That ratio cannot possibly be > 1 considering that there are more White students than Asian students at these colleges.
  - wfunction 14y ago
    Wait, what? I asked about candidates who would be accepted, you're talking about candidates who are accepted. When the whole question is about discrimination in the admissions process, you can't just assume those two are similar quantities without backing it up.
    - wchou 14y ago
      Consider the following true statement: IF there were more qualified Asian applicants than qualified White applicants (ratio > 1) _and_ admissions was not racially biased, THEN there should be more Asians than Whites in the student body. We know that there are more Whites than Asians in the student body of these colleges, so look at the contrapositive: IF there are more Whites than Asians in the student body, THEN there more qualified White applicants (ratio <= 1) _or_ admissions was racially biased.
      - wfunction 14y ago
        I don't get it. If you agree with me that admissions could be racially biased, then what makes you think "That ratio cannot possibly be > 1"?
        wchou 14y ago
        I meant racially biased against Asians. Look carefully at the logic statement I wrote - it means that one of two things must be true: 1. There exists racial bias specifically against Asians in admissions. 2. Qualified White applicants outnumber qualified Asian applicants. If you concede (1), then your point that Asians get treated more harshly because they're majority is moot. If you concede (2), then, as you said, your argument doesn't work since "ratio < 1". I don't know how to make this more clear than by using propositional logic.
        wfunction 14y ago
        I'm sorry, I'm just not understanding how my point is moot. Maybe it's just because I'm running low on sleep, but consider this scenario: 1. Qualified Asian applicants outnumber qualified White applicants. 2. A higher percentage of qualified White applicants are admitted than that of qualified Asian applicants. 3. There are more Whites than Asians in the admitted student body. Can you tell me which sentence of mine this scenario runs counter to, or which logical impossibility you think it results in?
newnewnew 14y ago
In the Myth of American Meritocracy[1] Ron Unz shows that non-Jewish white students face 5x as much discrimination as Asian students in comparison with their proportion of the general population, and 2x as much when compared with their proportion of national merit scholars. I don't think it matters to anyone, though, because they're white kids. [1]http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/ http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-...
- anonymoushn 14y ago
  Although this article is interesting and worth a read, it is very difficult to verify that your source backs your claim. It is unclear whether the reader is supposed to perform some calculations upon some figures in the source material to arrive at your claims or whether, by exhaustively searching many different paraphrasings of your claims, one could eventually find the same claims made in the source.
  - newnewnew 14y ago
    Sorry, commenting on the go. non-jewish white % in ivy league is about 30%, in general pop it is about 65% for a ratio of about 0.5x. asian % in ivy league is about 15% and general pop about 5% for a ratio of 3.0x. Asian ivy league pop % / merit scholar % given by Unz is about 70%. Same for non-jewish whites is about 35% Asians are getting the short end of the stick, but non-jewish white kids are getting it worse.
    - lsc 14y ago
      how do they statistically account for 'non-jewish white?' - is there a box on the admissions paper asking how many Jewish grandparents you have or something? I mean, I've seen forms asking for my race, but I've never seen one asking if I considered myself Jewish. (and it seems, well, pretty slippery, as nearly all the people I know who identify as Jewish also identify as "White (non hispanic)" - And I've seen several studies saying that without cultural context, even experts can't tell Jewish faces from non-Jewsh faces from similar parts of the world.) Seems to me like there are a lot of people who could identify one way or the other, who will answer the question differently, depending on how they think you want the question answered.

wfunction 14y ago

What's the Asian to White ratio of qualified college applicants? i.e. are there more Whites or Asians who would be accepted based on factors other than their race? If it's > 1, then obviously Asians will take a bigger hit, since they're the majority, that's the whole point of my comment. If it's <= 1 though then yes, the situation is very interesting indeed.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- wfunction 14y ago
  > Asians comprise < 5% of the US population, so the first option strikes me as highly unlikely. It doesn't strike me as highly unlikely. Asians tend to have much higher education levels than Whites: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0229.pdf http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0229.p...
wchou 14y ago
That ratio cannot possibly be > 1 considering that there are more White students than Asian students at these colleges.
- wfunction 14y ago
  Wait, what? I asked about candidates who would be accepted, you're talking about candidates who are accepted. When the whole question is about discrimination in the admissions process, you can't just assume those two are similar quantities without backing it up.
  - wchou 14y ago
    Consider the following true statement: IF there were more qualified Asian applicants than qualified White applicants (ratio > 1) _and_ admissions was not racially biased, THEN there should be more Asians than Whites in the student body. We know that there are more Whites than Asians in the student body of these colleges, so look at the contrapositive: IF there are more Whites than Asians in the student body, THEN there more qualified White applicants (ratio <= 1) _or_ admissions was racially biased.
    - wfunction 14y ago
      I don't get it. If you agree with me that admissions could be racially biased, then what makes you think "That ratio cannot possibly be > 1"?
      - wchou 14y ago
        I meant racially biased against Asians. Look carefully at the logic statement I wrote - it means that one of two things must be true: 1. There exists racial bias specifically against Asians in admissions. 2. Qualified White applicants outnumber qualified Asian applicants. If you concede (1), then your point that Asians get treated more harshly because they're majority is moot. If you concede (2), then, as you said, your argument doesn't work since "ratio < 1". I don't know how to make this more clear than by using propositional logic.
        wfunction 14y ago
        I'm sorry, I'm just not understanding how my point is moot. Maybe it's just because I'm running low on sleep, but consider this scenario: 1. Qualified Asian applicants outnumber qualified White applicants. 2. A higher percentage of qualified White applicants are admitted than that of qualified Asian applicants. 3. There are more Whites than Asians in the admitted student body. Can you tell me which sentence of mine this scenario runs counter to, or which logical impossibility you think it results in?

newnewnew 14y ago

In the Myth of American Meritocracy[1] Ron Unz shows that non-Jewish white students face 5x as much discrimination as Asian students in comparison with their proportion of the general population, and 2x as much when compared with their proportion of national merit scholars. I don't think it matters to anyone, though, because they're white kids. [1]http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/ http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-...

anonymoushn 14y ago
Although this article is interesting and worth a read, it is very difficult to verify that your source backs your claim. It is unclear whether the reader is supposed to perform some calculations upon some figures in the source material to arrive at your claims or whether, by exhaustively searching many different paraphrasings of your claims, one could eventually find the same claims made in the source.
- newnewnew 14y ago
  Sorry, commenting on the go. non-jewish white % in ivy league is about 30%, in general pop it is about 65% for a ratio of about 0.5x. asian % in ivy league is about 15% and general pop about 5% for a ratio of 3.0x. Asian ivy league pop % / merit scholar % given by Unz is about 70%. Same for non-jewish whites is about 35% Asians are getting the short end of the stick, but non-jewish white kids are getting it worse.
  - lsc 14y ago
    how do they statistically account for 'non-jewish white?' - is there a box on the admissions paper asking how many Jewish grandparents you have or something? I mean, I've seen forms asking for my race, but I've never seen one asking if I considered myself Jewish. (and it seems, well, pretty slippery, as nearly all the people I know who identify as Jewish also identify as "White (non hispanic)" - And I've seen several studies saying that without cultural context, even experts can't tell Jewish faces from non-Jewsh faces from similar parts of the world.) Seems to me like there are a lot of people who could identify one way or the other, who will answer the question differently, depending on how they think you want the question answered.