8 ms·
I don't get is, how is this surprising? When affirmative action is letting more people from some group in than they normally would, then isn't it kind of obvio
by wfunction 13y ago
I don't get is, how is this surprising?
When affirmative action is letting more people from some group in than they normally would, then isn't it kind of obvious that other groups will take the hit?
It's not some magical force... when A + B is to be constant (total capacity), then increasing B decreases A.
- litewulf 13y agoIf that is the case, then why do Asians underperformed compared to Whites? If affirmative action is meant to help underrepresented groups, shouldn't the overrepresented group be the one "taking the hit"?
- cobrausn 13y agoOver represented by what metric?
- cglee 13y agoAsians underperform? Please explain.
- streptomycin 13y agoAsians are the overrepresented group.
- wfunction 13y agoOverrepresented? Is the Asian to non-Asian ratio is higher fir college students than for qualified applicants to those colleges?
- streptomycin 13y agoYou'd have to define "qualified" first to answer that question... but anyway, that's not what overrepresented means.
- wfunction 13y agoWhat does it mean then?
- streptomycin 13y agoThere is a higher proportion of X in Y than there is of X in the total population.
- wfunction 13y agoThat's like saying children of age 6 are overrepresented in kindergarten, because there is a higher proportion of kids of age 6 in kindergarten than in the total population! The "natural" (equally-represented) proportion isn't that in the total population, it's the proportion in the population of interest, which in this case is the set of qualified applicants.
- streptomycin 13y agoThe meaning of words does depend on context of course. Regardless, rest assured that when you hear someone say "overrepresented" and they are talking about higher education, they are using the definition I gave you above.
- wfunction 13y agoWell then the word is quite uninteresting and meaningless.
- newnewnew 13y agoThe novel thing is that non-white students are being negatively affected.
- wfunction 13y agoWell, if minorities are being positively affected, then majorities (in this case, Asians + whites) must be negatively affected. How is that novel? The effect is the same as ever, whoever is part of the majority takes the hit.
- esrauch 13y agoIf white and Asian students are the majority, they should be selected against based on their proportion of that majority. I believe some are suggesting that Asian students are being unduly discriminated against when compared to white students.
- asdfologist 13y agoYou don't get it - the parent's point is that your argument doesn't explain why Asians take a much bigger hit than whites. "Asian applicants have 67% lower odds of admission than white applicants with comparable test scores."
- wfunction 13y agoWhat's the Asian to White ratio of qualified college applicants? i.e. are there more Whites or Asians who would be accepted based on factors other than their race? If it's > 1, then obviously Asians will take a bigger hit, since they're the majority, that's the whole point of my comment. If it's <= 1 though then yes, the situation is very interesting indeed.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- wfunction 13y ago
- booruguru 13y agoDude, did we read the same article? White students are favored over Asians with better scores. Asians are being penalized for being Asian.
- ajross 13y agoJust as latino students are "favored" over whites with better scores, and (at the top of the SAT range in the graph) black students are "favored" over latinos. You can't win here. Colleges admissions desire a diverse mix of students. Identifiable ethnicities have different median qualifications. So someone has to lose in that tradeoff. The point upthread was simply that usually when you see this argument made it's a complaint that whites are being "penalized". This time it's asians. But despite being a novel spin, it's still the same story.
- Crake 13y ago"Colleges admissions desire a diverse mix of students." They could try looking for actual diversity, then, instead of just an aesthetically pleasing mixture of superficial skin colors. Accepting 100 multiracial kids who all attended the same boarding schools is going to be way less diverse than a selection of 100 kids from different levels of income. Actually, I believe income quite dominates race in terms of predicting academic success these days--the interracial achievement gap looks quite small by comparison. (As well it should, in a country currently headed by a black president.)
- ajross 13y agoThat does nothing. You just swap out "my" arbitrary definition of "diversity" for your equally arbitrary one. Any definition that doesn't have a 1:1 frequency map with "objective stuff we otherwise use for admissions qualification" is subject to the same thing. And of course those objective measure are themselves subject to debate and (gasp) subjectivity. There's no winning here. Don't fool yourself into thinking you know the right way to do education selection, and stop sneering at all the people who want different things than you do.
- dopamean 13y agoWhen I got to Penn my freshman year I very quickly came to the very unscientific conclusion that the admissions office probably could have filled the entire freshman class with very smart Asian students who had better grades and test scores than me. I am black and was never a stellar student in high school but I had great test scores. I often felt that if I had been Asian or white I may not have been admitted.
- nahname 13y agoHow does that impact your view on the position or carrier you have obtained? Is it all part of the game? Just curious how affirmative action is viewed in your eyes, as someone who believes they benefitted from it.
- dopamean 13y agoTo be honest, I have never put much thought into it. There were so many kids at Penn who were legacies, athletes, or from very wealthy families that I never felt like I may not have "deserved" to be there. There may have been affirmative action for minority students but there were similar types of things for many white and Jewish students as well. A lot of kids go to college every year based on something other than merit or race and so it never really bothered me that my race may have helped me get in. Does that make sense?
- nahname 13y agoI think so. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
- scubaguy 13y agoIt's pretty clear the point is not that discrimination against Asians is a secret. The point the author is making is that this kind of discrimination is wrong.