7 ms·

When I was 7 years old, the Big Scary Thing In The Future was cursive writing. Once you hit 2nd grade, teachers were going to start tearing up your homework un

When I was 7 years old, the Big Scary Thing In The Future was cursive writing. Once you hit 2nd grade, teachers were going to start tearing up your homework unless it was written in cursive. The next year, it was "3rd grade" when teachers would start tearing up non-cursive papers, then 4th, 5th, 6th and "definitely in junior high". But it never happened in reality. In my 20s, the Big Scary Thing In The Future was ageism in tech. Once you hit 30, you'd never find work again in this industry. Then it was 35. Then 40. I've given up listening. Every year, in addition to getting better at what I do, I find that more people want to pay me more money to come program computers for them. Now it's certainly possible that the real number is 45, and you'll find me living in a cardboard box and begging for nickels at the off-ramp in a few years. But at this point I'm not overly worried about this particular myth.

dave_sid 14y ago
lol
- dave_sid 14y ago
  I lost 4 points of karma for saying 'lol'. Somebody shoot me now. lol.
k__ 14y ago
Well, the positions of developers seem to shift with age. I am 27 and work as a GUI-dev. My co GUI-devs are 26 and 32 years old. But the back-end developers are 38, 43 and 56 years old. The management in here consists of engineers, too. They are all >40 years old. Most tech-people I know either got in to back-end development or management when they got older.
- rubinelli 14y ago
  That's an interesting observation, and it matches with my experience, too. Specially in larger teams, the senior developers gravitate towards the back-end, and the 'full-stack developer' is an extremely rare sight. If I had to guess why it is, I'd say that back-end technologies naturally evolve slower. Yes, we are in the middle of a Big Data boom, but even then, the rate at which Hadoop changes is nowhere near Ruby on Rails, to cite two popular technologies.
  - Proleps 14y ago
    > If I had to guess why it is, I'd say that back-end technologies naturally evolve slower. I think it is this way because back-end development requires more expertise than GUI development. Steady more experienced developers are better suited than new hires.
    - k__ 14y ago
      Many of the back-end devs in here tell me, back-end is easier, because they can measure everything. Slow = bad Fast = good They probably think a good GUI is a question of taste and can't be measured and they don't want depend on "luck"
      - crag 14y ago
        The front-end guy also deals with the users more. And after spending 20+ years doing that, us older geeks are more than happy to moved to management or the back-end. Peace and quite.
    - zachgersh 14y ago
      I know what you were meaning to say but I have actually been chastised by many a frontend dev for saying "Oh, all the stuff the frontend team does is easy". In either area (frontend / backend) the complexity depends entirely on the problem that you are trying to solve and I am sure there are plenty of FE problems that require a high level of expertise to solve elegantly.
  - fallous 14y ago
    Yes and no. The front-end (as far as web goes) is still HTML and Javascript, just better frameworks. And the base patterns of good design still apply regardless of the front-end technology. The back-end in the last five years or so has definitely had a lot of change in data stores, emphasis on RESTful API exposure to front-end and other back-end services, web server choice and style (WSGI, PSGI, FCGI, etc). The biggest difference is that a front-end developer has to worry about the performance of a single client using a single state machine. The back-end guy has to deal with making a site fast and reliable while supporting 100s or 1000s of those clients concurrently. Crash the browser every 100K views and someone reloads. Crash the back-end every 100K views and someone gets fired.
- ww520 14y ago
  I might be the weird exception, started in the db/OS/backend, and ended up in web front end and mobile. What I found is that front end is closer to what the business clients see and what they would pay. Business users really can't see and don't care what the backend does as long as it works.
  - GFischer 14y ago
    Sadly, that's true :( . If the IT executives don't defend the work of the backend people, they're screwed. I worked for close to 2 years on a new backend for the insurance company I work for. A new, street-smart guy started getting cozy with management (instead of doing his assigned work), went behind the back of the IT manager and convinced another department to give him some money to build a colourful new frontend (which basically called the new backend and displayed the results, the money went into design and showed), and the company ended up firing the (pretty clueless) IT manager and putting the new guy in charge, over the guys that worked on the backend that made everything possible (both our fault and the clueless IT managers' that this happened, but it still sucks).
- Tactic 14y ago
  I moved from front end work to back end work for some very simple reasons a) in general it pays better and related b) front end guys are far move common so the backend has less competition. Work, as I have become older, is more and more just a business proposition. Plus it puts me further away from those guys that think HTML/CSS is programming. :)
paulbunn 14y ago
I totally agree. A lot comes down to the individuals ability to adapt and remain relevant, regardless of age.
michaelochurch 14y ago
I seem to have accelerated my own aging in the sense that my technical prowess and cynicism have grown rapidly in the past 7 years. At 23, I'd never written a professional program in my life. Now, almost 30, I'm probably a 1.8-level engineer. So that's 0.9-1.1 points in 7 years, covering 6 jobs including a failed startup and explosive software failures (none my fault) seen up front and from afar. My observation is that, as you get older, the jobs available to you get better but they also get rarer. That's partly because you filter out the bad jobs. When someone makes you sign a full-on non-compete to take a coding test-- not just an NDA covering the material in the test, but the works-- you just don't return the email. Anyway, what it means is that when you do get a job, you're more likely to find quality, but you can no longer count on a new job in 2 weeks if your existing one ends, especially because after 35+ you are going to be sized up for some kind of leadership potential, making fit demands very high.
- ericb 14y ago
  > you filter out the bad jobs. True. I'm much less willing to be paid partly in startup monopoly money now...
  - michaelochurch 14y ago
    True. I'm much less willing to be paid partly in startup monopoly money now... Agreed. Especially when someone else controls the board (pun intended) and your chances of landing on someone else's 4-hotel Park Place are high. (Wait, weren't there only 12 hotels in the game? Why does every property, even fucking Water Works, have 3 or 4 of them?) Then there's cliffing. Community Chest => "Fired on day 364. No equity. No severance. No-name company. Fucked reputation. Here's a Revolver. Wait, wrong game. That's Clue, which you don't have. Do not collect $200." Employees can get cliffed, but if a founder tried to "cliff" an investor he'd Go To Jail for fraud.
    - ericd 14y ago
      I'm not sure why you're so negative on the whole startup thing - while there are examples of foul play, the vast majority of founders do try to do right by their employees.
el_fuser 14y ago
While your anecdotal evidence is endearing, it is at odds with the actual data that researchers have compiled. Which the article briefly mentions.
- jasonkester 14y ago
  But it's not. The only data cited in the article showed that "salary increases slowed" as engineers (in the semiconductor industry) grew older. Stated more clearly: "Once you get to a comfortable multi-six-figure salary, you'll find you don't get spectacular percentage increases quite as often." That seems applicable to any field anywhere. The article correctly states that an older guy is likely to be making three times as much as a new grad, while incorrectly assuming that he's still only capable of using the technology he learned 20 years hence. So, no. The fact that the author couldn't actually come up with any statistics implying that being old is actually a bad thing, despite combing the Bureau of Labor Statistics and Census for data, seems to be a good indicator that there's nothing to worry about.
compay 14y ago
So far my experience has been exactly the same as what you describe. I just turned 40 and recently got the highest paying job I've ever had - writing code full time. I'm cautiously optimistic we can keep this up indefinitely.
rayiner 14y ago
The key to longevity in engineering is: 1) develop an expertise; 2) develop management skills. I know lots of guys working as engineers in their 50's. People hire them, because they have an expertise. Not a niche just by virtue of being old (like COBOL) but a problem domain they know inside and out. Nobody is tossing out their 45 year old engineer that works on carrier grade network software in favor of a fresh graduate.
- ryanSrich 14y ago
  > develop an expertise. This. It's the same way in the high profile freelance game. Those that have a specific knowledge, most often, can charge higher, often ridiculous, rates. It doesn't even have to be languages or frameworks. It could be implementing large scale ecommerce solution with Magento. Companies that need that level of focus are willing to pay.
el_fuser 14y ago
Your anecdotal evidence counters research data, and hn votes it to the top. How cute.
OGinparadise 14y ago
I wish you the best but your experience doesn't mean much and doesn't prove or disprove anything. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias Can you imagine Bill Gates, in college or no college debate, writing about quitting college, listing his milestones and then fast-forward to $60+ billion in net-worth.

dave_sid 14y ago

lol

dave_sid 14y ago
I lost 4 points of karma for saying 'lol'. Somebody shoot me now. lol.

k__ 14y ago

Well, the positions of developers seem to shift with age. I am 27 and work as a GUI-dev. My co GUI-devs are 26 and 32 years old. But the back-end developers are 38, 43 and 56 years old. The management in here consists of engineers, too. They are all >40 years old. Most tech-people I know either got in to back-end development or management when they got older.

rubinelli 14y ago
That's an interesting observation, and it matches with my experience, too. Specially in larger teams, the senior developers gravitate towards the back-end, and the 'full-stack developer' is an extremely rare sight. If I had to guess why it is, I'd say that back-end technologies naturally evolve slower. Yes, we are in the middle of a Big Data boom, but even then, the rate at which Hadoop changes is nowhere near Ruby on Rails, to cite two popular technologies.
- Proleps 14y ago
  > If I had to guess why it is, I'd say that back-end technologies naturally evolve slower. I think it is this way because back-end development requires more expertise than GUI development. Steady more experienced developers are better suited than new hires.
  - k__ 14y ago
    Many of the back-end devs in here tell me, back-end is easier, because they can measure everything. Slow = bad Fast = good They probably think a good GUI is a question of taste and can't be measured and they don't want depend on "luck"
    - crag 14y ago
      The front-end guy also deals with the users more. And after spending 20+ years doing that, us older geeks are more than happy to moved to management or the back-end. Peace and quite.
  - zachgersh 14y ago
    I know what you were meaning to say but I have actually been chastised by many a frontend dev for saying "Oh, all the stuff the frontend team does is easy". In either area (frontend / backend) the complexity depends entirely on the problem that you are trying to solve and I am sure there are plenty of FE problems that require a high level of expertise to solve elegantly.
- fallous 14y ago
  Yes and no. The front-end (as far as web goes) is still HTML and Javascript, just better frameworks. And the base patterns of good design still apply regardless of the front-end technology. The back-end in the last five years or so has definitely had a lot of change in data stores, emphasis on RESTful API exposure to front-end and other back-end services, web server choice and style (WSGI, PSGI, FCGI, etc). The biggest difference is that a front-end developer has to worry about the performance of a single client using a single state machine. The back-end guy has to deal with making a site fast and reliable while supporting 100s or 1000s of those clients concurrently. Crash the browser every 100K views and someone reloads. Crash the back-end every 100K views and someone gets fired.
ww520 14y ago
I might be the weird exception, started in the db/OS/backend, and ended up in web front end and mobile. What I found is that front end is closer to what the business clients see and what they would pay. Business users really can't see and don't care what the backend does as long as it works.
- GFischer 14y ago
  Sadly, that's true :( . If the IT executives don't defend the work of the backend people, they're screwed. I worked for close to 2 years on a new backend for the insurance company I work for. A new, street-smart guy started getting cozy with management (instead of doing his assigned work), went behind the back of the IT manager and convinced another department to give him some money to build a colourful new frontend (which basically called the new backend and displayed the results, the money went into design and showed), and the company ended up firing the (pretty clueless) IT manager and putting the new guy in charge, over the guys that worked on the backend that made everything possible (both our fault and the clueless IT managers' that this happened, but it still sucks).
Tactic 14y ago
I moved from front end work to back end work for some very simple reasons a) in general it pays better and related b) front end guys are far move common so the backend has less competition. Work, as I have become older, is more and more just a business proposition. Plus it puts me further away from those guys that think HTML/CSS is programming. :)

paulbunn 14y ago

I totally agree. A lot comes down to the individuals ability to adapt and remain relevant, regardless of age.

michaelochurch 14y ago

I seem to have accelerated my own aging in the sense that my technical prowess and cynicism have grown rapidly in the past 7 years. At 23, I'd never written a professional program in my life. Now, almost 30, I'm probably a 1.8-level engineer. So that's 0.9-1.1 points in 7 years, covering 6 jobs including a failed startup and explosive software failures (none my fault) seen up front and from afar. My observation is that, as you get older, the jobs available to you get better but they also get rarer. That's partly because you filter out the bad jobs. When someone makes you sign a full-on non-compete to take a coding test-- not just an NDA covering the material in the test, but the works-- you just don't return the email. Anyway, what it means is that when you do get a job, you're more likely to find quality, but you can no longer count on a new job in 2 weeks if your existing one ends, especially because after 35+ you are going to be sized up for some kind of leadership potential, making fit demands very high.

ericb 14y ago
> you filter out the bad jobs. True. I'm much less willing to be paid partly in startup monopoly money now...
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  True. I'm much less willing to be paid partly in startup monopoly money now... Agreed. Especially when someone else controls the board (pun intended) and your chances of landing on someone else's 4-hotel Park Place are high. (Wait, weren't there only 12 hotels in the game? Why does every property, even fucking Water Works, have 3 or 4 of them?) Then there's cliffing. Community Chest => "Fired on day 364. No equity. No severance. No-name company. Fucked reputation. Here's a Revolver. Wait, wrong game. That's Clue, which you don't have. Do not collect $200." Employees can get cliffed, but if a founder tried to "cliff" an investor he'd Go To Jail for fraud.
  - ericd 14y ago
    I'm not sure why you're so negative on the whole startup thing - while there are examples of foul play, the vast majority of founders do try to do right by their employees.

el_fuser 14y ago

While your anecdotal evidence is endearing, it is at odds with the actual data that researchers have compiled. Which the article briefly mentions.

jasonkester 14y ago
But it's not. The only data cited in the article showed that "salary increases slowed" as engineers (in the semiconductor industry) grew older. Stated more clearly: "Once you get to a comfortable multi-six-figure salary, you'll find you don't get spectacular percentage increases quite as often." That seems applicable to any field anywhere. The article correctly states that an older guy is likely to be making three times as much as a new grad, while incorrectly assuming that he's still only capable of using the technology he learned 20 years hence. So, no. The fact that the author couldn't actually come up with any statistics implying that being old is actually a bad thing, despite combing the Bureau of Labor Statistics and Census for data, seems to be a good indicator that there's nothing to worry about.

compay 14y ago

So far my experience has been exactly the same as what you describe. I just turned 40 and recently got the highest paying job I've ever had - writing code full time. I'm cautiously optimistic we can keep this up indefinitely.

rayiner 14y ago

The key to longevity in engineering is: 1) develop an expertise; 2) develop management skills. I know lots of guys working as engineers in their 50's. People hire them, because they have an expertise. Not a niche just by virtue of being old (like COBOL) but a problem domain they know inside and out. Nobody is tossing out their 45 year old engineer that works on carrier grade network software in favor of a fresh graduate.

ryanSrich 14y ago
> develop an expertise. This. It's the same way in the high profile freelance game. Those that have a specific knowledge, most often, can charge higher, often ridiculous, rates. It doesn't even have to be languages or frameworks. It could be implementing large scale ecommerce solution with Magento. Companies that need that level of focus are willing to pay.

el_fuser 14y ago

Your anecdotal evidence counters research data, and hn votes it to the top. How cute.

OGinparadise 14y ago

I wish you the best but your experience doesn't mean much and doesn't prove or disprove anything. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias Can you imagine Bill Gates, in college or no college debate, writing about quitting college, listing his milestones and then fast-forward to $60+ billion in net-worth.