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I don't work at a startup. But, there is a big advantage of working at a startup over a company like Conde Nest. Conde Nest is no longer growing rapidly which

I don't work at a startup. But, there is a big advantage of working at a startup over a company like Conde Nest. Conde Nest is no longer growing rapidly which means... That the only way to move up is for people to quit or for you to out politic your coworkers. Contrast that with a rapid growth company, lets say one that IPOs in 10 years, yeah, you get a payout, but you also should get a huge increase in salary and responsibility over those 10 years.

nilkn 14y ago
I clarified this in an edit to my previous post, but this is actually a somewhat dangerous attitude. If you don't have a senior or executive level title from the beginning in an emerging startup, you face the real risk of simply having people hired over you rather than getting those increases in responsibility that you want. If you are VP of Engineering from the start, then the founders will struggle to hire too many people above you, if any, because they don't want to sacrifice the sanctity of that title. If you are brought on as a junior engineer, however, you can't count on getting the promotions you deserve. Of course, not every startup is going to do this. I'm just mentioning it as it should be part of the decision making process. Joining a startup does not equate to guaranteed increases in responsibility and leadership.
- shykes 14y ago
  > If you are VP of Engineering from the start [...] If you are brought on as a junior engineer, however, you can't count on getting the promotions you deserve. Playing devil's advocate: for one early employee who kicks ass and is not rewarded with increased responsibilities, how many expect a VP title served on a silver platter in spite of their inexperience and/or inability to manage, and blame the company instead of themselves when that happens? Speaking as a founder, when I see someone over-delivering and eager to do more, I sure as hell will double his ration of responsibilities, and then double it some more as long as he's willing and able. And yes, in a good company when responsibilities and value added to the company truly double, so does compensation.
  - ebiester 14y ago
    ...And then you've loaded them up with a bunch of areas where they've taken technical responsibility until they're overwhelmed with maintenance. So you can't possibly put them in a management or leadership position, they're too valuable in what they're already doing! Doubling their responsibilities isn't going to get them on the conference call with investors. It isn't going to get them in charge of a team, in most cases. Instead, in most cases, an experienced lead will be hired. Or the team will be sold/aquihired, and he'll end up a junior engineer in BigCo anyway. So, why take a chance on a startup making below market rates, especially if it's not a clear winner? Now, I operationalize "Startup" as an organization in search of a repeatable business model, as Steve Blank suggests. If instead, the great but junior developer is looking at a profitable, growing company, it may make sense to join at below market rates. That way, product/market fit has already been established and your work can directly be correlated to things that increase profitability. But those are two different games.
    - shykes 14y ago
      ...And then you've loaded them up with a bunch of areas where they've taken technical responsibility until they're overwhelmed with maintenance. So you can't possibly put them in a management or leadership position. I disagree with you in 3 ways: * I didn't limit the scope to technical responsibilities. You did. I mean everything from product leadership, customer interactions, management, growth, etc. No shortage of interesting things to do in an early-stage startup if you're willing to get your hands dirty. * You imply increased technical responsibilities are a bad thing. How can one think that and be an engineer? Being overwhelmed with maintenance may indicate other problems. Maybe your organization doesn't value gradual maintenance and has to pay it all at once. Maybe you're getting the shit maintenance work while others get the fun projects. Or maybe you have low tolerance for the unsexy but necessary work of maintaining your code. * You present technical responsibilities and leadership as mutually exclusive. Leadership and management are not the same thing! As a technical lead you may not be anybody's boss, but in a good technical organization it should give you plenty of opportunities to show your worth while growing personally. I think the mistake here is confusing career advancement with the number of people reporting to you. Startups don't work that way. The measuring stick for your trajectory should be 1) how much you get done and 2) how much recognition you get for it. How many people report to you is an implementation detail. ... If you've been kicking ass managing a small team, have made it clear that you're interested in a director position, and the company hires an outsider instead, maybe they're idiots and it's time to move to greener pastures. That's how smart companies find great first-time directors. ... If you're an engineer but want to try your hand as a first-time manager, and you're not given the opportunity, find a company willing to take the risk. ... And so on.
- tkone 14y ago
  Or you can even get that nice "VP of Engineering" title and then they say "oh he is too valuable to stop coding so we'll hire an SVP of Engineering -- you know, a professional manager." because you've foolishly spent your 6 months there rewriting the product from the ground up.

nilkn 14y ago

I clarified this in an edit to my previous post, but this is actually a somewhat dangerous attitude. If you don't have a senior or executive level title from the beginning in an emerging startup, you face the real risk of simply having people hired over you rather than getting those increases in responsibility that you want. If you are VP of Engineering from the start, then the founders will struggle to hire too many people above you, if any, because they don't want to sacrifice the sanctity of that title. If you are brought on as a junior engineer, however, you can't count on getting the promotions you deserve. Of course, not every startup is going to do this. I'm just mentioning it as it should be part of the decision making process. Joining a startup does not equate to guaranteed increases in responsibility and leadership.

shykes 14y ago
> If you are VP of Engineering from the start [...] If you are brought on as a junior engineer, however, you can't count on getting the promotions you deserve. Playing devil's advocate: for one early employee who kicks ass and is not rewarded with increased responsibilities, how many expect a VP title served on a silver platter in spite of their inexperience and/or inability to manage, and blame the company instead of themselves when that happens? Speaking as a founder, when I see someone over-delivering and eager to do more, I sure as hell will double his ration of responsibilities, and then double it some more as long as he's willing and able. And yes, in a good company when responsibilities and value added to the company truly double, so does compensation.
- ebiester 14y ago
  ...And then you've loaded them up with a bunch of areas where they've taken technical responsibility until they're overwhelmed with maintenance. So you can't possibly put them in a management or leadership position, they're too valuable in what they're already doing! Doubling their responsibilities isn't going to get them on the conference call with investors. It isn't going to get them in charge of a team, in most cases. Instead, in most cases, an experienced lead will be hired. Or the team will be sold/aquihired, and he'll end up a junior engineer in BigCo anyway. So, why take a chance on a startup making below market rates, especially if it's not a clear winner? Now, I operationalize "Startup" as an organization in search of a repeatable business model, as Steve Blank suggests. If instead, the great but junior developer is looking at a profitable, growing company, it may make sense to join at below market rates. That way, product/market fit has already been established and your work can directly be correlated to things that increase profitability. But those are two different games.
  - shykes 14y ago
    ...And then you've loaded them up with a bunch of areas where they've taken technical responsibility until they're overwhelmed with maintenance. So you can't possibly put them in a management or leadership position. I disagree with you in 3 ways: * I didn't limit the scope to technical responsibilities. You did. I mean everything from product leadership, customer interactions, management, growth, etc. No shortage of interesting things to do in an early-stage startup if you're willing to get your hands dirty. * You imply increased technical responsibilities are a bad thing. How can one think that and be an engineer? Being overwhelmed with maintenance may indicate other problems. Maybe your organization doesn't value gradual maintenance and has to pay it all at once. Maybe you're getting the shit maintenance work while others get the fun projects. Or maybe you have low tolerance for the unsexy but necessary work of maintaining your code. * You present technical responsibilities and leadership as mutually exclusive. Leadership and management are not the same thing! As a technical lead you may not be anybody's boss, but in a good technical organization it should give you plenty of opportunities to show your worth while growing personally. I think the mistake here is confusing career advancement with the number of people reporting to you. Startups don't work that way. The measuring stick for your trajectory should be 1) how much you get done and 2) how much recognition you get for it. How many people report to you is an implementation detail. ... If you've been kicking ass managing a small team, have made it clear that you're interested in a director position, and the company hires an outsider instead, maybe they're idiots and it's time to move to greener pastures. That's how smart companies find great first-time directors. ... If you're an engineer but want to try your hand as a first-time manager, and you're not given the opportunity, find a company willing to take the risk. ... And so on.
tkone 14y ago
Or you can even get that nice "VP of Engineering" title and then they say "oh he is too valuable to stop coding so we'll hire an SVP of Engineering -- you know, a professional manager." because you've foolishly spent your 6 months there rewriting the product from the ground up.