7 ms·

The 11 Most Mystifying Things the Tsarnaev Brothers Did

37 points by kumarski 14y ago

kumarski 14y ago
Anybody else think it was odd they mentioned WMD? Didn't realize the definition of WMD was extended to stuff people make at home.
- bdfh42 14y ago
  But it makes them way easier to find next time a government invades another country. Politicians do not like to get "caught" twice - well unless it is an indiscreet sexual liaison. (cynical me?)
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  The law with regard to "weapons of mass destruction" is quite nonsensical. It has nothing to do with mass destruction whatsoever.
  - Terretta 14y ago
    Completely agreed. The military definition is reasonable. the domestic criminal code and FBI definition is a bit silly: any IED with over a tiny quarter ounce of explosive. They've essentially made WMD a synonym for explosive when we already had the perfectly serviceable word bomb. And now there's no room for a more serious charge (ahem).
- bobsy 14y ago
  Its interesting. When the US + UK went into Iraq looking for WMD's I imagined they were after something more menacing than something a kid knocked up in his apartment. If that is a WMD then what classification do we give the bombs that level buildings that have frequently been used in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan? The most troubling thing I find about the prosecution is how they listed damaging interstate trade, presumably to keep the death sentence open. Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty. Perhaps the most troubling thing about the bombings is how two people apparently so disorganized successfully carried out a double bombing..
  - weego 14y ago
    The WMD definition is as simple as it being what the other side has. We have tactical ordinance.
  - mpyne 14y ago
    > If that is a WMD then what classification do we give the bombs that level buildings that have frequently been used in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan? "Conventional ordnance". Military materiel has long been treated separately from civilian scope though. Just try to buy a gun in Europe if you don't believe me, and then compare and contrast with a German Army armory. Military and civilian are two different worlds. > The most troubling thing I find about the prosecution is how they listed damaging interstate trade, presumably to keep the death sentence open. A Chinese national died due to this. That's not only interstate in scope, it's international in scope. "Damaging interstate trade" is the Feds piling on, they could probably easily come up with 14 other ways to ensure jurisdiction remained at the Federal level if they felt like it. Even as much as buying a pressure cooker online and having it shipped from out-of-state would be sufficient to allow Federal jurisdiction.
  - Vivtek 14y ago
    Makes you kind of wonder if shutting down Boston for a day was partly motivated by the desire to be able to list damage to interstate trade.
- DanBC 14y ago
  There are things that could be made at home that would count as WMD. Aum Shinryko made and released aerosolized anthrax. (Luckily, wrong strain of anthrax, and thus no widespread death.) I'm surprised a pressure cooker bomb is included.
stfu 14y ago
Difficult subject. But it seems save to suspect that there are "some" inconsistencies in the story. Debka had another take on the situation: http://debka.com/article/22914/The-Tsarnaev-brothers-were-double-agents-who-decoyed-US-into-terror-trap http://debka.com/article/22914/The-Tsarnaev-brothers-were-do...
- MichaelApproved 14y ago
  So frustrating. When I click te article on my phone, I get redirected to this page http://app.debka.com/n/ http://app.debka.com/n/ It's going out of its way to make it more difficult to use the site.
  - corin_ 14y ago
    You're not missing out on much.
  - 13rules 14y ago
    The old server attention span problem... http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/server_attention_span.png http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/server_attention_span.png
- jacquesm 14y ago
  That's not just another take, that's another planet entirely.
- illuminate 14y ago
  I'm holding out for the David Icke breakdown.
m_eiman 14y ago
I suppose we should be glad that most of these "terrorists" are incompetent fools, that means that the competent people of even the die-hard radicals have decided that there are better things to do than blow people up; hopefully something a bit more productive.
- Symmetry 14y ago
  Humans are nearly universally bad at doing things they've never done before and never seen someone do before. Experience and institutional experience are really important in doing anything effectively, and tacit knowledge is often hard to convey in training videos. The perpetrators here don't seem to be particularly smart or brave, but I don't see any reason to think they were particularly dumb either.
  - m_eiman 14y ago
    I didn't say that they were dumb, I said that they were incompetent fools. Incompetent for not managing to cause more destruction, fools for not escaping when they had the chance. It's quite likely that I would be a bad terrorist too, but I would at least study the effects of explosives and explosions and how to maximize the result before trying to use them. It's not like there's not a lot of research in the area, given that it's been a priority for the world's armed forces since forever.
    - Symmetry 14y ago
      They did study the effects of explosives and explosions and they did pretty well given the constraints they were working under. It's very hard to get access to high explosives without the FBI nabbing you, and trying to make them from scratch without a chemistry degree is a recipe for blowing yourself up or having them fizzle like the Time Square Bomber's. The US isn't like Iraq where you can buy an artillery shell from a looted depot for $5.
      - m_eiman 14y ago
        I was actually thinking of the placement of the bombs. Putting them on the ground in a crowd means that the people nearest the explosion will act as shields for those further away.
lolcraft 14y ago
Those do not include the most ridiculous thing they've done. The absolutely most bizarre thing is that, being "Chechnyan separatists", they attacked the US, precisely the one country they shouldn't have. An attack of Russia, while stupid in its unlikelihood to mobilize popular support for their country, would be at least understandable. Russia is, after all, raping their country every fucking hour. An attack of revenge, maybe against the military or police forces, would be what's expected. Instead, they attacked the country which they should have tried to ally with, the US. With United-Statesian support, at least they could have a shot at independence, or at least some favourable publicity. There are plenty of reasons for that to happen [1]. The ironic thing is that, even though it was a passional, senseless move, the kind that no serious terrorist planner would consider, it could bring a better understanding, and better publicity for Chechnya in the West. I hope. Or maybe they just ripped to shreds the only good card their country had. Every terror attack that is attempted, the more convinced I am of Bruce Schneier's views on terrorism: terrorist are fundamentally stupid, emotionally fragile, intellectually lazy people [2]. [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/04/what-you-should-know-about-chechnya-as-the-boston-story-unfolds/275156/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/04/wha... [2] https://www.schneier.com/essay-242.html https://www.schneier.com/essay-242.html
- samwillis 14y ago
  There is fairly strong evidence that they were not "Chechnyan separatists" and more likely had an Jihadist motivation. Although it is also highly likely that they acted completely alone and are just stupid.
  - nsns 14y ago
    I think most facts point to two very confused and deluded youngsters, it's a joke even calling them "terrorists" or "Jihadists". Their madness adopted an Islamic tinge because of their roots, but IMO they're not very different from all the other disturbed American young people who commit gun violence.
    - samwillis 14y ago
iSnow 14y ago
Obviously they did not care if the got caught or not, similar in a way to Anders Breivik.
- mrtksn 14y ago
  Oh they did care, that's why they hide and fight back. they are probably just morons filled with hatred and no plan other than "bomb this people". they just assumed that they won't be caught, didn't consider the possibility that they would be identified.
  - Devilboy 14y ago
    Backwards cap? No sunglasses?
    - mrtksn 14y ago
      actually attempt to hide identity in the crowd would look more suspicious. the idea of hiding in the crowd requires to blend in, not look like you are hiding something. ah, and sorry for the typos.
arcadeparade 14y ago
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/04/the-official-tsarnaev-story-makes-no-sense/ http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/04/the-official-...
rshlo 14y ago
The only mystifying thing they did is getting up in the morning and decide that they want to kill innocent people. They've done it in a country that gave them citizenship and great possible future. That's the only question we should ask here.
- PavlovsCat 14y ago
  That's the only question we should ask here. Who made you "the only question we should ask" police?
ubersync 14y ago
I have a weapon of mass destruction at my home! Just chill guys, I use a pressure cooker to boil potatoes sometimes. Actually I have another one as well, a BB gun. I don't really know which one is the government referring to as a WMD.
- Terretta 14y ago
  Military definition is what we think of as WMD. The FBI definition of WMD, though, is any improvised explosive device with more than 1/4 ounce of explosive. (Used to be able to buy firecrackers stronger than that so it seems like a trivializing definition to me.)
disbelief 14y ago
If I could add a 12th item to this list, it would be that one brother accidentally killed the other by running him over with the stolen car while trying to get away.
- techtalsky 14y ago
  I don't see that as very mystifying. He was escaping in the middle of a death-defying gun battle and staying alive was literally the only thing on his mind. He panicked, and possibly thought his brother was already dead.
ebbv 14y ago
None of this is mystifying if you realize one fact; they are idiots. Also the whole "Numbered List of Things" article format is a cancer on the internet and has been for a long time. It's unworthy of Mother Jones and it's unworthy of this subject.
- PavlovsCat 14y ago
  None of this is mystifying if you realize one fact; they are idiots. So much hand-waving in here, and I think that in itself tells the biggest story. We don't know if what this was; but IF it was a false flag thingy, it could and would be explained away in the same fashion. When something bad is done and the media rub it in deeply enough, anything you can say about the hated villain will be accepted as long as it makes them look even worse, and makes yourself feel superior. When worse things happen and the crickets chirp, well, let's go ride bikes. You can rationalize it however you want, you can moderate, flag and pout all you want; you've been trained well, and your comment is projection. You project your own irrelevance. Also the whole "Numbered List of Things" article format is a cancer on the internet and has been for a long time. It's unworthy of Mother Jones and it's unworthy of this subject. Your response is unworthy of that article and the subject. It's not even a padded list, so wtf do you think you're spouting other than sophistry?
  - ebbv 14y ago
    Tinfoil hat, condescension and faux intellectualism. Impressive. You should get some kind of award.
    - PavlovsCat 14y ago
      Sure, why not shoot an own goal instead of addressing any of what I actually did say ;)
time_n3rgy 14y ago
The assumption is that the Mother Jones list is accurate (and other 'official reports' for that matter). I would like to see more people express a broader view about what's possible regarding the Boston circumstances. I hope that there are people here that do not completely trust law enforcement/FBI and realize that there are shady ties between persons of violent means and the "intelligence" world + power-mad elitists. I recently found a site called TragedyandHope.net which has some useful info that covers topics from the history of compulsory schooling to "black ops." These kinds of incidents create a lot of messy unquestioned details that replace knowing with belief, no?
- time_n3rgy 14y ago
  Examples of Boston story changes: http://www.salon.com/2013/04/25/the_changing_facts_in_the_boston_investigation/ http://www.salon.com/2013/04/25/the_changing_facts_in_the_bo... (Didn't there used to be a comment edit feature?)

37 points by kumarski 14y ago

Anybody else think it was odd they mentioned WMD? Didn't realize the definition of WMD was extended to stuff people make at home.

bdfh42 14y ago
But it makes them way easier to find next time a government invades another country. Politicians do not like to get "caught" twice - well unless it is an indiscreet sexual liaison. (cynical me?)
InclinedPlane 14y ago
The law with regard to "weapons of mass destruction" is quite nonsensical. It has nothing to do with mass destruction whatsoever.
- Terretta 14y ago
  Completely agreed. The military definition is reasonable. the domestic criminal code and FBI definition is a bit silly: any IED with over a tiny quarter ounce of explosive. They've essentially made WMD a synonym for explosive when we already had the perfectly serviceable word bomb. And now there's no room for a more serious charge (ahem).
bobsy 14y ago
Its interesting. When the US + UK went into Iraq looking for WMD's I imagined they were after something more menacing than something a kid knocked up in his apartment. If that is a WMD then what classification do we give the bombs that level buildings that have frequently been used in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan? The most troubling thing I find about the prosecution is how they listed damaging interstate trade, presumably to keep the death sentence open. Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty. Perhaps the most troubling thing about the bombings is how two people apparently so disorganized successfully carried out a double bombing..
- weego 14y ago
  The WMD definition is as simple as it being what the other side has. We have tactical ordinance.
- mpyne 14y ago
  > If that is a WMD then what classification do we give the bombs that level buildings that have frequently been used in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan? "Conventional ordnance". Military materiel has long been treated separately from civilian scope though. Just try to buy a gun in Europe if you don't believe me, and then compare and contrast with a German Army armory. Military and civilian are two different worlds. > The most troubling thing I find about the prosecution is how they listed damaging interstate trade, presumably to keep the death sentence open. A Chinese national died due to this. That's not only interstate in scope, it's international in scope. "Damaging interstate trade" is the Feds piling on, they could probably easily come up with 14 other ways to ensure jurisdiction remained at the Federal level if they felt like it. Even as much as buying a pressure cooker online and having it shipped from out-of-state would be sufficient to allow Federal jurisdiction.
- Vivtek 14y ago
  Makes you kind of wonder if shutting down Boston for a day was partly motivated by the desire to be able to list damage to interstate trade.
DanBC 14y ago
There are things that could be made at home that would count as WMD. Aum Shinryko made and released aerosolized anthrax. (Luckily, wrong strain of anthrax, and thus no widespread death.) I'm surprised a pressure cooker bomb is included.

stfu 14y ago

Difficult subject. But it seems save to suspect that there are "some" inconsistencies in the story. Debka had another take on the situation: http://debka.com/article/22914/The-Tsarnaev-brothers-were-double-agents-who-decoyed-US-into-terror-trap http://debka.com/article/22914/The-Tsarnaev-brothers-were-do...

MichaelApproved 14y ago
So frustrating. When I click te article on my phone, I get redirected to this page http://app.debka.com/n/ http://app.debka.com/n/ It's going out of its way to make it more difficult to use the site.
- corin_ 14y ago
  You're not missing out on much.
- 13rules 14y ago
  The old server attention span problem... http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/server_attention_span.png http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/server_attention_span.png
jacquesm 14y ago
That's not just another take, that's another planet entirely.
illuminate 14y ago
I'm holding out for the David Icke breakdown.

m_eiman 14y ago

I suppose we should be glad that most of these "terrorists" are incompetent fools, that means that the competent people of even the die-hard radicals have decided that there are better things to do than blow people up; hopefully something a bit more productive.

Symmetry 14y ago
Humans are nearly universally bad at doing things they've never done before and never seen someone do before. Experience and institutional experience are really important in doing anything effectively, and tacit knowledge is often hard to convey in training videos. The perpetrators here don't seem to be particularly smart or brave, but I don't see any reason to think they were particularly dumb either.
- m_eiman 14y ago
  I didn't say that they were dumb, I said that they were incompetent fools. Incompetent for not managing to cause more destruction, fools for not escaping when they had the chance. It's quite likely that I would be a bad terrorist too, but I would at least study the effects of explosives and explosions and how to maximize the result before trying to use them. It's not like there's not a lot of research in the area, given that it's been a priority for the world's armed forces since forever.
  - Symmetry 14y ago
    They did study the effects of explosives and explosions and they did pretty well given the constraints they were working under. It's very hard to get access to high explosives without the FBI nabbing you, and trying to make them from scratch without a chemistry degree is a recipe for blowing yourself up or having them fizzle like the Time Square Bomber's. The US isn't like Iraq where you can buy an artillery shell from a looted depot for $5.
    - m_eiman 14y ago
      I was actually thinking of the placement of the bombs. Putting them on the ground in a crowd means that the people nearest the explosion will act as shields for those further away.

lolcraft 14y ago

Those do not include the most ridiculous thing they've done. The absolutely most bizarre thing is that, being "Chechnyan separatists", they attacked the US, precisely the one country they shouldn't have. An attack of Russia, while stupid in its unlikelihood to mobilize popular support for their country, would be at least understandable. Russia is, after all, raping their country every fucking hour. An attack of revenge, maybe against the military or police forces, would be what's expected. Instead, they attacked the country which they should have tried to ally with, the US. With United-Statesian support, at least they could have a shot at independence, or at least some favourable publicity. There are plenty of reasons for that to happen [1]. The ironic thing is that, even though it was a passional, senseless move, the kind that no serious terrorist planner would consider, it could bring a better understanding, and better publicity for Chechnya in the West. I hope. Or maybe they just ripped to shreds the only good card their country had. Every terror attack that is attempted, the more convinced I am of Bruce Schneier's views on terrorism: terrorist are fundamentally stupid, emotionally fragile, intellectually lazy people [2]. [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/04/what-you-should-know-about-chechnya-as-the-boston-story-unfolds/275156/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/04/wha... [2] https://www.schneier.com/essay-242.html https://www.schneier.com/essay-242.html

samwillis 14y ago
There is fairly strong evidence that they were not "Chechnyan separatists" and more likely had an Jihadist motivation. Although it is also highly likely that they acted completely alone and are just stupid.
- nsns 14y ago
  I think most facts point to two very confused and deluded youngsters, it's a joke even calling them "terrorists" or "Jihadists". Their madness adopted an Islamic tinge because of their roots, but IMO they're not very different from all the other disturbed American young people who commit gun violence.
  - samwillis 14y ago

iSnow 14y ago

Obviously they did not care if the got caught or not, similar in a way to Anders Breivik.

mrtksn 14y ago
Oh they did care, that's why they hide and fight back. they are probably just morons filled with hatred and no plan other than "bomb this people". they just assumed that they won't be caught, didn't consider the possibility that they would be identified.
- Devilboy 14y ago
  Backwards cap? No sunglasses?
  - mrtksn 14y ago
    actually attempt to hide identity in the crowd would look more suspicious. the idea of hiding in the crowd requires to blend in, not look like you are hiding something. ah, and sorry for the typos.

arcadeparade 14y ago

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/04/the-official-tsarnaev-story-makes-no-sense/ http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/04/the-official-...

rshlo 14y ago

The only mystifying thing they did is getting up in the morning and decide that they want to kill innocent people. They've done it in a country that gave them citizenship and great possible future. That's the only question we should ask here.

PavlovsCat 14y ago
That's the only question we should ask here. Who made you "the only question we should ask" police?

ubersync 14y ago

I have a weapon of mass destruction at my home! Just chill guys, I use a pressure cooker to boil potatoes sometimes. Actually I have another one as well, a BB gun. I don't really know which one is the government referring to as a WMD.

Terretta 14y ago
Military definition is what we think of as WMD. The FBI definition of WMD, though, is any improvised explosive device with more than 1/4 ounce of explosive. (Used to be able to buy firecrackers stronger than that so it seems like a trivializing definition to me.)

disbelief 14y ago

If I could add a 12th item to this list, it would be that one brother accidentally killed the other by running him over with the stolen car while trying to get away.

techtalsky 14y ago
I don't see that as very mystifying. He was escaping in the middle of a death-defying gun battle and staying alive was literally the only thing on his mind. He panicked, and possibly thought his brother was already dead.

ebbv 14y ago

None of this is mystifying if you realize one fact; they are idiots. Also the whole "Numbered List of Things" article format is a cancer on the internet and has been for a long time. It's unworthy of Mother Jones and it's unworthy of this subject.

PavlovsCat 14y ago
None of this is mystifying if you realize one fact; they are idiots. So much hand-waving in here, and I think that in itself tells the biggest story. We don't know if what this was; but IF it was a false flag thingy, it could and would be explained away in the same fashion. When something bad is done and the media rub it in deeply enough, anything you can say about the hated villain will be accepted as long as it makes them look even worse, and makes yourself feel superior. When worse things happen and the crickets chirp, well, let's go ride bikes. You can rationalize it however you want, you can moderate, flag and pout all you want; you've been trained well, and your comment is projection. You project your own irrelevance. Also the whole "Numbered List of Things" article format is a cancer on the internet and has been for a long time. It's unworthy of Mother Jones and it's unworthy of this subject. Your response is unworthy of that article and the subject. It's not even a padded list, so wtf do you think you're spouting other than sophistry?
- ebbv 14y ago
  Tinfoil hat, condescension and faux intellectualism. Impressive. You should get some kind of award.
  - PavlovsCat 14y ago
    Sure, why not shoot an own goal instead of addressing any of what I actually did say ;)

time_n3rgy 14y ago

The assumption is that the Mother Jones list is accurate (and other 'official reports' for that matter). I would like to see more people express a broader view about what's possible regarding the Boston circumstances. I hope that there are people here that do not completely trust law enforcement/FBI and realize that there are shady ties between persons of violent means and the "intelligence" world + power-mad elitists. I recently found a site called TragedyandHope.net which has some useful info that covers topics from the history of compulsory schooling to "black ops." These kinds of incidents create a lot of messy unquestioned details that replace knowing with belief, no?

time_n3rgy 14y ago
Examples of Boston story changes: http://www.salon.com/2013/04/25/the_changing_facts_in_the_boston_investigation/ http://www.salon.com/2013/04/25/the_changing_facts_in_the_bo... (Didn't there used to be a comment edit feature?)