5 ms·

Better

105 points by brm 18y ago

ashot 18y ago
Its a nice thought, and I feel where he's coming from, but it feels like one of those rants thats a bit in denial about human nature.
- bbgm 18y ago
  Given that the rant comes from Merlin, it's likely that he has his tongue somewhere in his cheek Edit added later: After hearing the podcast, he might just be sincere about this. Somewhat weird to see Merlin's cynicism not laced with a healthy dose of sarcasm.
  - gabrielroth 18y ago
    My sense is that he's completely sincere about the whole thing. He amplified the opinions expressed here in this talk with John Gruber: http://www.43folders.com/2009/03/25/blogs-turbocharged http://www.43folders.com/2009/03/25/blogs-turbocharged
  - tdavis 18y ago
    Why wouldn't he be serious? As more and more people spew forth garbage onto the Internet, we just end up wasting more and more of each others' time. For god sakes, look at Twitter! Maybe there's some useful information in there sometimes, but for the most part it is pure noise -- and look how it's taking off! It's as if people would rather waste time both creating and consuming fluff than to spend the time to create and consume content that is actually worth something.
    - jfornear 18y ago
      You don't think social interaction is worth something?
      - tdavis 18y ago
        Broadcasting something to an undefined group of people doesn't really count as social interaction in my book. Even if it did, I'd consider it a pretty lazy and meaningless method thereof.
        jfornear 18y ago
        Your characterization of online social interaction is plain wrong. You can't assume everyone else approaches Twitter or Facebook the same way you might. People learn from each other online, argue with each other, start relationships, start/run businesses, share photos and videos, etc. I have no idea how you can overlook all the positive things to promote such a negative view.
chiffonade 18y ago
I'm going to rail against the fast-paced, impersonal nature of communicating internet by posting something fast and impersonal on the internet!
jacoblyles 18y ago
I'm sure I consumed my share of junk from the internet, but it was not all without value. I am glad that I have learned about so many technologies, old and new, from places like Hacker News. I may not be able to use them expertly, but when I run into a problem I know what tools are out there. I know about Lisp, Python, Perl, Haskell, EC2, Ruby on Rails, Django, Cocoa, Couch DB, scalability, functional programming, object oriented programming, design principles, VCS and DVCS, and a hundred other things. Sure, there's a lot of noise in there, but also a signal. When I recently had a chance to work with some programmers not so steeped in internet lore, all they knew was Java, and not well. They also knew of PHP's existence, and considered it the wave of the future for web apps. Now, if both of us were to start a web company, which do you think would win?
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- sgrove 18y ago
  Now, if both of us were to start a web company, which do you think would win? I'm of the opinion that while you'd have a head start, if the other programmers have the drive and skill (for studying) that they would need to succeed in any case, they would be able to pick up on the technology and principles as they go. It's not your previous exposure to various tech principles and "internet lore" that will make you succeed, those will only give you a small head start (and some interesting material to discuss with other hackers at meetups). It will come down to skill, determination, timing, and a fair bit of luck.
  - jacoblyles 18y ago
    It's hard to hold constant all variables except one between persons. Is it reasonable to expect that a programmer with drive and skill wouldn't know about some internet lore, wouldn't know of resources like freenode and stackoverflow.com, and wouldn't know something about the variety of technologies that are out there? The direction of causation is tricky to unwind. I think you're right, however. If a two programmers were of equal competence, except one only knew about Java and the other sat on Hacker News all day, the Hacker News reader would probably only have a small head start. However, it would be hard to find two programmers that met those descriptions and were of equal competence.
concretecode 18y ago
I've become a fan of Merlin's writing since he posted this last December. If you enjoyed this, go read Real Advice Hurts http://www.43folders.com/2008/12/03/real-advice-hurts http://www.43folders.com/2008/12/03/real-advice-hurts which speaks to some of the same issues, and struck a chord with me. I've re-read it at least half a dozen times.
anthonyrubin 18y ago
Does Merlin take his own message very seriously? Take a look at his personal blog: http://www.kungfugrippe.com/ http://www.kungfugrippe.com/
r0bins0n 18y ago
Since this manifesto came out his output has slowed significantly and it's hard to argue that his posts and blog are "better" than they used to be.
c00p3r 18y ago
Good vision, good post. Yes, all those so-called social networks are just about an ability to say something, because it makes you feel a little better for at least several minutes. The feeling is what matters, not the content itself. In 2000 - 2001 the livejournal.com service gained a huge popularity in Russia among mass-media and hi-tech workers. It were really good times. It was a possibility to say something aloud, and to feel this so necessary feeling of being not alone, which, of course is mere an illusion. That is why facebook got their 200 million users - I see them each day in those internet caffees in Thamel, uploading all the same almost identical photos and writing almost the same banal stories. Self-exibition as another time-killing and keeping-the-mind-busy process, why not? Twitter is also here.

105 points by brm 18y ago

ashot 18y ago

Its a nice thought, and I feel where he's coming from, but it feels like one of those rants thats a bit in denial about human nature.

bbgm 18y ago
Given that the rant comes from Merlin, it's likely that he has his tongue somewhere in his cheek Edit added later: After hearing the podcast, he might just be sincere about this. Somewhat weird to see Merlin's cynicism not laced with a healthy dose of sarcasm.
- gabrielroth 18y ago
  My sense is that he's completely sincere about the whole thing. He amplified the opinions expressed here in this talk with John Gruber: http://www.43folders.com/2009/03/25/blogs-turbocharged http://www.43folders.com/2009/03/25/blogs-turbocharged
- tdavis 18y ago
  Why wouldn't he be serious? As more and more people spew forth garbage onto the Internet, we just end up wasting more and more of each others' time. For god sakes, look at Twitter! Maybe there's some useful information in there sometimes, but for the most part it is pure noise -- and look how it's taking off! It's as if people would rather waste time both creating and consuming fluff than to spend the time to create and consume content that is actually worth something.
  - jfornear 18y ago
    You don't think social interaction is worth something?
    - tdavis 18y ago
      Broadcasting something to an undefined group of people doesn't really count as social interaction in my book. Even if it did, I'd consider it a pretty lazy and meaningless method thereof.
      - jfornear 18y ago
        Your characterization of online social interaction is plain wrong. You can't assume everyone else approaches Twitter or Facebook the same way you might. People learn from each other online, argue with each other, start relationships, start/run businesses, share photos and videos, etc. I have no idea how you can overlook all the positive things to promote such a negative view.

chiffonade 18y ago

I'm going to rail against the fast-paced, impersonal nature of communicating internet by posting something fast and impersonal on the internet!

jacoblyles 18y ago

I'm sure I consumed my share of junk from the internet, but it was not all without value. I am glad that I have learned about so many technologies, old and new, from places like Hacker News. I may not be able to use them expertly, but when I run into a problem I know what tools are out there. I know about Lisp, Python, Perl, Haskell, EC2, Ruby on Rails, Django, Cocoa, Couch DB, scalability, functional programming, object oriented programming, design principles, VCS and DVCS, and a hundred other things. Sure, there's a lot of noise in there, but also a signal. When I recently had a chance to work with some programmers not so steeped in internet lore, all they knew was Java, and not well. They also knew of PHP's existence, and considered it the wave of the future for web apps. Now, if both of us were to start a web company, which do you think would win?

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
sgrove 18y ago
Now, if both of us were to start a web company, which do you think would win? I'm of the opinion that while you'd have a head start, if the other programmers have the drive and skill (for studying) that they would need to succeed in any case, they would be able to pick up on the technology and principles as they go. It's not your previous exposure to various tech principles and "internet lore" that will make you succeed, those will only give you a small head start (and some interesting material to discuss with other hackers at meetups). It will come down to skill, determination, timing, and a fair bit of luck.
- jacoblyles 18y ago
  It's hard to hold constant all variables except one between persons. Is it reasonable to expect that a programmer with drive and skill wouldn't know about some internet lore, wouldn't know of resources like freenode and stackoverflow.com, and wouldn't know something about the variety of technologies that are out there? The direction of causation is tricky to unwind. I think you're right, however. If a two programmers were of equal competence, except one only knew about Java and the other sat on Hacker News all day, the Hacker News reader would probably only have a small head start. However, it would be hard to find two programmers that met those descriptions and were of equal competence.

concretecode 18y ago

I've become a fan of Merlin's writing since he posted this last December. If you enjoyed this, go read Real Advice Hurts http://www.43folders.com/2008/12/03/real-advice-hurts http://www.43folders.com/2008/12/03/real-advice-hurts which speaks to some of the same issues, and struck a chord with me. I've re-read it at least half a dozen times.

anthonyrubin 18y ago

Does Merlin take his own message very seriously? Take a look at his personal blog: http://www.kungfugrippe.com/ http://www.kungfugrippe.com/

r0bins0n 18y ago

Since this manifesto came out his output has slowed significantly and it's hard to argue that his posts and blog are "better" than they used to be.

c00p3r 18y ago

Good vision, good post. Yes, all those so-called social networks are just about an ability to say something, because it makes you feel a little better for at least several minutes. The feeling is what matters, not the content itself. In 2000 - 2001 the livejournal.com service gained a huge popularity in Russia among mass-media and hi-tech workers. It were really good times. It was a possibility to say something aloud, and to feel this so necessary feeling of being not alone, which, of course is mere an illusion. That is why facebook got their 200 million users - I see them each day in those internet caffees in Thamel, uploading all the same almost identical photos and writing almost the same banal stories. Self-exibition as another time-killing and keeping-the-mind-busy process, why not? Twitter is also here.