7 ms·

TSA Accepting Public Comments On Whole Body Airport Screening

36 points by jdp23 14y ago

kaonashi 14y ago
Which will be promptly ignored.
- jdp23 14y ago
  Yes and no. The TSA does have to respond to the comments, but can simply reaffirm the proposed rule without changes after the comment period. On the other hand, a loud public outcry in comments can lead to changes -- both from the regulatory agency and in Congress (by highlighting a vote-winning issue). There have been a couple of very successful civil liberties commenting campaigns (Know Your Customer, although it eventually got introduced via the Patriot Act; and Stop Real ID, which involved a very similar coalition to the one that's likely to be getting involved here).
  - gergles 14y ago
    KYC was implemented for everything, including prepaid credit cards. Real ID is very real; basically every state is now a member of the DMVPP and passes data freely, including to Canada and Mexico. How exactly did comment campaigns do anything? I agree with the GP, the whole exercise is a farce. TSA will have the same guy that writes the condescending "pat pat You don't understand why the grownups want to do this" responses to the We The People petitions respond to all of these comments invoking 9/11 and how the world has changed and how sometimes you just have to accept unpleasant things.
- huhtenberg 14y ago
  Or, TSA has already decided to take the scanners down, and so now they are just looking to pick up free goodwill since it's bloody obvious what the public would say on the matter.
  - ck2 14y ago
    The are certainly not taking the scanners down. They are only changing the technological method of scanning. If anything they are trying to get scanners in more places outside of airports. If I remember reading correctly, the old scanners are still going to be in use at like courthouses.
- pmorici 14y ago
  My immediate thought was they must be running short on TP.
adnam 14y ago
Ah, what timing
killermonkeys 14y ago
You can also opt out of the scan when you travel which registers your opinion. On average this adds about 3 minutes to the security time, though sometimes longer (up to 7) if other people are getting patdowns. In SFO they log reasons and include health concerns and privacy concerns.
- netnichols 14y ago
  I did this once in Charlotte (which btw is normally an excellent airport). I had to wait about 15 minutes for 'the agent' to show up that would conduct the pat-down. There were about 5 TSA agents standing around doing nothing while I was waiting. Setting aside the wait time, they were all friendly enough, but they all had this look of "ugh... what is this guy's problem", and I wouldn't bet against the wait time being a purposeful deterrent. So, while I will continue to opt out when possible, I wouldn't recommend doing it if you're short on time.
- hkmurakami 14y ago
  I did this about 4 times so far but then the last time it now up in my face by adding 1 hour to my screening time and while I philosophically wasn't too keep opting out I have to wonder if I can keep justifying it pragmatically.
  - tlrobinson 14y ago
    How did it add an hour to your screening?
    - hispanic 14y ago
      As netnichols stated above, "I had to wait about 15 minutes for 'the agent' to show up that would conduct the pat-down." I'm guessing that this is the reason. I've successfully opted out once. In that instance, an agent performed a pat-down with no wait. I tried again more recently and, after fruitlessly waiting 5-10 minutes for the special pat-down agent to arrive, gave up and reluctantly went through the backscatter.
- 14y ago
np422 14y ago
(English is not my native language) I am very surprised by the very large amount of statism that seems to be present in USA in general and on hacker news in particular. The high level of support for GWOT and all the side dishes like TSA, mass surveillance etc is very surprising. Each and one of all the things that have been done in the post 9/11 world may partially or completely be justifiable on it's own. But please, take a step back and paint a picture of where we have come from and were we are going if this trend continues. If I may help you... http://i.imgur.com/tfPY1y0.jpg http://i.imgur.com/tfPY1y0.jpg , here is a picture of the subway in New York in the 80's, dirty and full of graffiti - with drugs and violence present and by all means also music, food vendors and a lot of people going to their jobs. http://i.imgur.com/AxWRPgl.jpg http://i.imgur.com/AxWRPgl.jpg , here is the Moscow subway from the same time. Clean, spotless and no one behaves disorderly without the police arresting them quickly, police officers with none of the ridiculous limitations that the western police had in their code of conduct at that time. In which of those two subways would you prefer to ride to work every day? With every new alfabet law designed to protect us that passes through the parliaments, with every new government agency we move closer to a society that looks more like the Moscow subway station. Not to long ago we were prepared for thermonuclear war to defend our ways. Today we are giving up our open and free society with a cheer so we can stay safe. Step by step, piece by piece. Why can't the otherwise so intelligent and educated crowd of hacker news see that our society is heading in the direction of a police state? We are not there yet, but it is where we will end up if we don't turn around soon.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- gus_massa 14y ago
  Is it possible to opt in for cleanliness and freedom? Perhaps something like http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=swedish+subway http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=swedish+subway ? (I understand that it is not a perfectly free country nor a perfectly clean country, but it looks good enough.)
  - StavrosK 14y ago
binarymax 14y ago
The comments seem to have a vastly negative sentiment - which is a good sign - but its probably the vocal minority. People who don't care (the majority) wont even bother commenting. On last count - I have opted out a dozen times, and I have never stepped foot in one of these machines. 12 is a small sample size but on average it took 15 minutes longer than a metal detector (with a couple outliers of course). The experience with agents has varied. One of them purposefully stuck me in front of an air-conditioner and I froze for a good 10 minutes while he went off and did something else. On a separate occasion a younger agent barely touched me and waved me by (he seemed less enthusiastic the pat-down than I was!). I will continue to opt out until either the machines are scrapped or I no longer have a choice. I just add the extra time to my journey knowing that I will most likely be waiting longer.
- carbocation 14y ago
  I have always opted out as well. Recently the agents have started informing me that the new machines are safe, but they rarely answer my follow up question satisfactorily ("Great! Where did you get your degree in biophysics?").
  - sfx 14y ago
    A TSA agent was once similarly telling me how it "emits less radiation than a cell phone" after I opted out. I of course couldn't care as opposed to how invasive it is. I think as a public we tend to value our health, almost unhealthily; but when it comes to civil rights or privacy, we don't care as long as we're not effected.
- tlrobinson 14y ago
  I've opted out probably 20 times (protip: a lot of times if its busy you can time it so they wave you through the metal detector instead), and almost all have only taken ~5 minutes. Only once or twice have I felt the pat down was excessive or they made me wait too long.
methodover 14y ago
The one genius thing about the body scanners is that the TSA have persuaded people who don't like them that they can protest by opting out. Opting out isn't a protest. I have no idea why people think it is. You're given a manual search that is just as invasive as a body scan. If you want to register your discontent with the searches at airports, don't delude yourselves that opting out does anything. No one notices. No one writes it down. No one cares.
- Karunamon 14y ago
  Sure it is. Enough people opting out bogs down the system for all. Think of it as a form of malicious compliance.

36 points by jdp23 14y ago

kaonashi 14y ago

Which will be promptly ignored.

jdp23 14y ago
Yes and no. The TSA does have to respond to the comments, but can simply reaffirm the proposed rule without changes after the comment period. On the other hand, a loud public outcry in comments can lead to changes -- both from the regulatory agency and in Congress (by highlighting a vote-winning issue). There have been a couple of very successful civil liberties commenting campaigns (Know Your Customer, although it eventually got introduced via the Patriot Act; and Stop Real ID, which involved a very similar coalition to the one that's likely to be getting involved here).
- gergles 14y ago
  KYC was implemented for everything, including prepaid credit cards. Real ID is very real; basically every state is now a member of the DMVPP and passes data freely, including to Canada and Mexico. How exactly did comment campaigns do anything? I agree with the GP, the whole exercise is a farce. TSA will have the same guy that writes the condescending "pat pat You don't understand why the grownups want to do this" responses to the We The People petitions respond to all of these comments invoking 9/11 and how the world has changed and how sometimes you just have to accept unpleasant things.
huhtenberg 14y ago
Or, TSA has already decided to take the scanners down, and so now they are just looking to pick up free goodwill since it's bloody obvious what the public would say on the matter.
- ck2 14y ago
  The are certainly not taking the scanners down. They are only changing the technological method of scanning. If anything they are trying to get scanners in more places outside of airports. If I remember reading correctly, the old scanners are still going to be in use at like courthouses.
pmorici 14y ago
My immediate thought was they must be running short on TP.

adnam 14y ago

Ah, what timing

killermonkeys 14y ago

You can also opt out of the scan when you travel which registers your opinion. On average this adds about 3 minutes to the security time, though sometimes longer (up to 7) if other people are getting patdowns. In SFO they log reasons and include health concerns and privacy concerns.

netnichols 14y ago
I did this once in Charlotte (which btw is normally an excellent airport). I had to wait about 15 minutes for 'the agent' to show up that would conduct the pat-down. There were about 5 TSA agents standing around doing nothing while I was waiting. Setting aside the wait time, they were all friendly enough, but they all had this look of "ugh... what is this guy's problem", and I wouldn't bet against the wait time being a purposeful deterrent. So, while I will continue to opt out when possible, I wouldn't recommend doing it if you're short on time.
hkmurakami 14y ago
I did this about 4 times so far but then the last time it now up in my face by adding 1 hour to my screening time and while I philosophically wasn't too keep opting out I have to wonder if I can keep justifying it pragmatically.
- tlrobinson 14y ago
  How did it add an hour to your screening?
  - hispanic 14y ago
    As netnichols stated above, "I had to wait about 15 minutes for 'the agent' to show up that would conduct the pat-down." I'm guessing that this is the reason. I've successfully opted out once. In that instance, an agent performed a pat-down with no wait. I tried again more recently and, after fruitlessly waiting 5-10 minutes for the special pat-down agent to arrive, gave up and reluctantly went through the backscatter.
14y ago

np422 14y ago

(English is not my native language) I am very surprised by the very large amount of statism that seems to be present in USA in general and on hacker news in particular. The high level of support for GWOT and all the side dishes like TSA, mass surveillance etc is very surprising. Each and one of all the things that have been done in the post 9/11 world may partially or completely be justifiable on it's own. But please, take a step back and paint a picture of where we have come from and were we are going if this trend continues. If I may help you... http://i.imgur.com/tfPY1y0.jpg http://i.imgur.com/tfPY1y0.jpg , here is a picture of the subway in New York in the 80's, dirty and full of graffiti - with drugs and violence present and by all means also music, food vendors and a lot of people going to their jobs. http://i.imgur.com/AxWRPgl.jpg http://i.imgur.com/AxWRPgl.jpg , here is the Moscow subway from the same time. Clean, spotless and no one behaves disorderly without the police arresting them quickly, police officers with none of the ridiculous limitations that the western police had in their code of conduct at that time. In which of those two subways would you prefer to ride to work every day? With every new alfabet law designed to protect us that passes through the parliaments, with every new government agency we move closer to a society that looks more like the Moscow subway station. Not to long ago we were prepared for thermonuclear war to defend our ways. Today we are giving up our open and free society with a cheer so we can stay safe. Step by step, piece by piece. Why can't the otherwise so intelligent and educated crowd of hacker news see that our society is heading in the direction of a police state? We are not there yet, but it is where we will end up if we don't turn around soon.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
gus_massa 14y ago
Is it possible to opt in for cleanliness and freedom? Perhaps something like http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=swedish+subway http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=swedish+subway ? (I understand that it is not a perfectly free country nor a perfectly clean country, but it looks good enough.)
- StavrosK 14y ago

binarymax 14y ago

The comments seem to have a vastly negative sentiment - which is a good sign - but its probably the vocal minority. People who don't care (the majority) wont even bother commenting. On last count - I have opted out a dozen times, and I have never stepped foot in one of these machines. 12 is a small sample size but on average it took 15 minutes longer than a metal detector (with a couple outliers of course). The experience with agents has varied. One of them purposefully stuck me in front of an air-conditioner and I froze for a good 10 minutes while he went off and did something else. On a separate occasion a younger agent barely touched me and waved me by (he seemed less enthusiastic the pat-down than I was!). I will continue to opt out until either the machines are scrapped or I no longer have a choice. I just add the extra time to my journey knowing that I will most likely be waiting longer.

carbocation 14y ago
I have always opted out as well. Recently the agents have started informing me that the new machines are safe, but they rarely answer my follow up question satisfactorily ("Great! Where did you get your degree in biophysics?").
- sfx 14y ago
  A TSA agent was once similarly telling me how it "emits less radiation than a cell phone" after I opted out. I of course couldn't care as opposed to how invasive it is. I think as a public we tend to value our health, almost unhealthily; but when it comes to civil rights or privacy, we don't care as long as we're not effected.
tlrobinson 14y ago
I've opted out probably 20 times (protip: a lot of times if its busy you can time it so they wave you through the metal detector instead), and almost all have only taken ~5 minutes. Only once or twice have I felt the pat down was excessive or they made me wait too long.

methodover 14y ago

The one genius thing about the body scanners is that the TSA have persuaded people who don't like them that they can protest by opting out. Opting out isn't a protest. I have no idea why people think it is. You're given a manual search that is just as invasive as a body scan. If you want to register your discontent with the searches at airports, don't delude yourselves that opting out does anything. No one notices. No one writes it down. No one cares.

Karunamon 14y ago
Sure it is. Enough people opting out bogs down the system for all. Think of it as a form of malicious compliance.