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What struck me was the fact that this guy seems to be actually worried about his career. How fucked up is an industry where saying "I don't want to work on [X]"

What struck me was the fact that this guy seems to be actually worried about his career. How fucked up is an industry where saying "I don't want to work on [X]" makes you unemployable? I hope the AAA studios (and Zynga + clones) collapse under the weight of their mediocrity. Let's get to making some real fucking games.

pharrington 14y ago
Let's get to making some real fucking games What kind of games do you like playing?
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  I like the '90s RPGs for their storyline. They weren't on the same level as great literature, but they did an admirable job of creating something fun to play that had a story to it. I also like the fact that, after about 30-60 hours (which is the right amount of time) they're over. These days, I prefer playing games for the social experience so I'm more into German-style board games. I also wrote a card game called Ambition (which I linked in this thread) and that's pretty fun. I can't stand most of the derivative stuff that comes out of the major studios. It's so formulaic.
  - pharrington 14y ago
    Well, I guess I'm not sure exactly what you mean by derivative and formulaic. After all, all expression is built from existing forms, and anything that's completely unrecognizable is completely inaccessible. Do you mean that the recent games you see are lacking creative focus? Or that you don't see innovative twists or fresh reinterpretations of gameplay/visual/story formulas? Maybe you can just give some specific examples of some recent games you've seen and what turns you off about them? The social experience from playing games is pretty broad too. Pretty much every game has an active community behind it. I like playing fighting games; online play for most is pretty solid, and at least in the US there's always a local group of players to play, hang out, and host or go to tournaments with. The same goes for RTSs and action RTSs, even though I don't play those. If you want to try playing RPGs for the story again, recent games like Nier and Xenoblade Chronicles are lauded for their story and characters. I've also heard good things about Ni no Kuni, which famed anime studio Studio Ghibli also worked on. Beyond that, there's a near endless stream of quality AAA and indie games on Steam to browse or try. I might be assuming too much, but whenever I hear someone say new games are bland and formulaic, it seems like they've only heard of Call of Duty, and really aren't taking any time to look for what else exists. Most games made now are bland; most games in the 90s were bland too, but since there's a ton more people making games, there's a ton more variety to choice from. The marketing for the CoD types may be strong, but that doesn't make it impossible to look past that to see the constant stream of excellent games being made right now.
    - gu 14y ago
      A problem I have with modern games is that they literally string you along. I recently played Alan Wake on the Xbox 360. It was an unexpected experience because it paced relatively boring parts with some sudden spikes of adrenaline, and this happened over and over and over. In essence, nothing goes on for about two or three minutes, and suddenly two or three bad guys appear, trying to take you down. After an hour or two of playing this game, I couldn't help but think that this was carefully balanced, and little more than a clever attempt to stretch the length of the game. I wouldn't be surprised if I the creators of the game (Microsoft and Remedy) had some psychologist conduct studies on how long it takes for people to lose interest. I completed the game, but I felt like in some kind of stupor: never completely engaged, but never so bored that I wanted to quit. Something quite similar happens in MMORPGs where the "drop rates" of items are carefully balanced to maximize the time you invest. From a relevant article [0]: "How to make players play hard. Translated into the language we've been using, how do we make players maintain a high, consistent rate of activity? Looking at our four basic schedules, the answer is a variable ratio schedule, one where each response has a chance of producing a reward. Activity level is a function of how soon the participant expects a reward to occur. The more certain they are that something good or interesting will happen soon, the harder they'll play. When the player knows the reward is a long way off, such as when the player has just leveled and needs thousands of points before they can do it again, motivation is low and so is player activity. How to make players play forever. The short answer is to make sure that there is always, always a reason for the player to be playing. The variable schedules I discussed produce a constant probability of reward, and thus the player always has a reason to do the next thing. What a game designer also wants from players is a lot of "behavioral momentum," a tendency to keep doing what they're doing even during the parts where there isn't an immediate reward. One schedule that produces a lot of momentum is the avoidance schedule, where the players work to prevent bad things from happening. Even when there's nothing going on, the player can achieve something positive by postponing a negative consequence." That article makes for some chilling reading. To get back to the point Michael was making: I do think that games nowadays are in general much more unappealing than they used to be. I know, I know, in the early 90s we had one platformer after another, but they often had quite distinct graphical styles and the mechanics didn't transfer 1:1 either --- just compare Mario to Sonic --- but today you've got one FPS after another, and almost all of them strive for realism and instant gratification a la Call of Duty. Many FPS games have absolutely identical mechanics, down to the button mapping. Storywise, FPS games are an absolute disaster. Very few games try to be different, like Spec Ops: The Line which provided a rather unusual emotional experience. Sadly, it sold very poorly. [0] http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131494/behavioral_game_design.php?print=1 http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131494/behavioral_game...
  - dkersten 14y ago
    If you want a game with good story telling, try The Witcher 2.
incision 14y ago
>How fucked up is an industry where saying "I don't want to work on [X]" makes you unemployable? While I don't agree with the mentality, having your work dictated to some degree by your industry isn't terribly unusual. How far would a sysadmin who says "I don't want to work on Linux" get in the world of web startups?
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  We're talking past each other, insofar as I was interpreting him as making a CLM by saying he didn't like first-person-shooters, not choosing not to work on them. Maybe I misinterpreted what he was saying.
tptacek 14y ago
This comment makes it sound like you think the problem with the games sector is that it's dominated by companies like EA. That's a problem, but it's dwarfed by the real problem, which is supply and demand. If you want to see a really "fucked up" industry, try being a tool and die engineer.
- rollo_tommasi 14y ago
  At the risk of derailing this subthread, I'd be interested in knowing what's fucked up about the tool-and-die industry.
- rdl 14y ago
  Actually, I know through guns a tech/developer guy who just moved into tool and die machining (as a job and as a hobby) in Arizona, and he's never been happier, loves his job, loves his coworkers, loves his working environment. Craftsmanship, quality, values, etc. Pretty much everything you'd consider ideal. Maybe there's a losing part of the industry somewhere?
pandaman 14y ago
He is saying he is limiting his career, not becoming unemployable. Projects like CoD, BF or Halo offer, by far, more money, stability, professional development possibility, sane working environment etc. There are plenty of studios that never have made and never will make an FPS. There are plenty of people who never shipped an FPS in their entire career. However, in the current market, if you are not working on an FPS like mentioned above, chances are high that you are crunching for low pay, over a design made by people who don't even want to play the game themselves, surrounded by peers who hate their job and either having the project canceled and laid-off or shipping a mediocre game and getting laid-off in lieu of completion bonus.

pharrington 14y ago

Let's get to making some real fucking games What kind of games do you like playing?

michaelochurch 14y ago
I like the '90s RPGs for their storyline. They weren't on the same level as great literature, but they did an admirable job of creating something fun to play that had a story to it. I also like the fact that, after about 30-60 hours (which is the right amount of time) they're over. These days, I prefer playing games for the social experience so I'm more into German-style board games. I also wrote a card game called Ambition (which I linked in this thread) and that's pretty fun. I can't stand most of the derivative stuff that comes out of the major studios. It's so formulaic.
- pharrington 14y ago
  Well, I guess I'm not sure exactly what you mean by derivative and formulaic. After all, all expression is built from existing forms, and anything that's completely unrecognizable is completely inaccessible. Do you mean that the recent games you see are lacking creative focus? Or that you don't see innovative twists or fresh reinterpretations of gameplay/visual/story formulas? Maybe you can just give some specific examples of some recent games you've seen and what turns you off about them? The social experience from playing games is pretty broad too. Pretty much every game has an active community behind it. I like playing fighting games; online play for most is pretty solid, and at least in the US there's always a local group of players to play, hang out, and host or go to tournaments with. The same goes for RTSs and action RTSs, even though I don't play those. If you want to try playing RPGs for the story again, recent games like Nier and Xenoblade Chronicles are lauded for their story and characters. I've also heard good things about Ni no Kuni, which famed anime studio Studio Ghibli also worked on. Beyond that, there's a near endless stream of quality AAA and indie games on Steam to browse or try. I might be assuming too much, but whenever I hear someone say new games are bland and formulaic, it seems like they've only heard of Call of Duty, and really aren't taking any time to look for what else exists. Most games made now are bland; most games in the 90s were bland too, but since there's a ton more people making games, there's a ton more variety to choice from. The marketing for the CoD types may be strong, but that doesn't make it impossible to look past that to see the constant stream of excellent games being made right now.
  - gu 14y ago
    A problem I have with modern games is that they literally string you along. I recently played Alan Wake on the Xbox 360. It was an unexpected experience because it paced relatively boring parts with some sudden spikes of adrenaline, and this happened over and over and over. In essence, nothing goes on for about two or three minutes, and suddenly two or three bad guys appear, trying to take you down. After an hour or two of playing this game, I couldn't help but think that this was carefully balanced, and little more than a clever attempt to stretch the length of the game. I wouldn't be surprised if I the creators of the game (Microsoft and Remedy) had some psychologist conduct studies on how long it takes for people to lose interest. I completed the game, but I felt like in some kind of stupor: never completely engaged, but never so bored that I wanted to quit. Something quite similar happens in MMORPGs where the "drop rates" of items are carefully balanced to maximize the time you invest. From a relevant article [0]: "How to make players play hard. Translated into the language we've been using, how do we make players maintain a high, consistent rate of activity? Looking at our four basic schedules, the answer is a variable ratio schedule, one where each response has a chance of producing a reward. Activity level is a function of how soon the participant expects a reward to occur. The more certain they are that something good or interesting will happen soon, the harder they'll play. When the player knows the reward is a long way off, such as when the player has just leveled and needs thousands of points before they can do it again, motivation is low and so is player activity. How to make players play forever. The short answer is to make sure that there is always, always a reason for the player to be playing. The variable schedules I discussed produce a constant probability of reward, and thus the player always has a reason to do the next thing. What a game designer also wants from players is a lot of "behavioral momentum," a tendency to keep doing what they're doing even during the parts where there isn't an immediate reward. One schedule that produces a lot of momentum is the avoidance schedule, where the players work to prevent bad things from happening. Even when there's nothing going on, the player can achieve something positive by postponing a negative consequence." That article makes for some chilling reading. To get back to the point Michael was making: I do think that games nowadays are in general much more unappealing than they used to be. I know, I know, in the early 90s we had one platformer after another, but they often had quite distinct graphical styles and the mechanics didn't transfer 1:1 either --- just compare Mario to Sonic --- but today you've got one FPS after another, and almost all of them strive for realism and instant gratification a la Call of Duty. Many FPS games have absolutely identical mechanics, down to the button mapping. Storywise, FPS games are an absolute disaster. Very few games try to be different, like Spec Ops: The Line which provided a rather unusual emotional experience. Sadly, it sold very poorly. [0] http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131494/behavioral_game_design.php?print=1 http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131494/behavioral_game...
- dkersten 14y ago
  If you want a game with good story telling, try The Witcher 2.

incision 14y ago

>How fucked up is an industry where saying "I don't want to work on [X]" makes you unemployable? While I don't agree with the mentality, having your work dictated to some degree by your industry isn't terribly unusual. How far would a sysadmin who says "I don't want to work on Linux" get in the world of web startups?

michaelochurch 14y ago
We're talking past each other, insofar as I was interpreting him as making a CLM by saying he didn't like first-person-shooters, not choosing not to work on them. Maybe I misinterpreted what he was saying.

tptacek 14y ago

This comment makes it sound like you think the problem with the games sector is that it's dominated by companies like EA. That's a problem, but it's dwarfed by the real problem, which is supply and demand. If you want to see a really "fucked up" industry, try being a tool and die engineer.

rollo_tommasi 14y ago
At the risk of derailing this subthread, I'd be interested in knowing what's fucked up about the tool-and-die industry.
rdl 14y ago
Actually, I know through guns a tech/developer guy who just moved into tool and die machining (as a job and as a hobby) in Arizona, and he's never been happier, loves his job, loves his coworkers, loves his working environment. Craftsmanship, quality, values, etc. Pretty much everything you'd consider ideal. Maybe there's a losing part of the industry somewhere?

pandaman 14y ago

He is saying he is limiting his career, not becoming unemployable. Projects like CoD, BF or Halo offer, by far, more money, stability, professional development possibility, sane working environment etc. There are plenty of studios that never have made and never will make an FPS. There are plenty of people who never shipped an FPS in their entire career. However, in the current market, if you are not working on an FPS like mentioned above, chances are high that you are crunching for low pay, over a design made by people who don't even want to play the game themselves, surrounded by peers who hate their job and either having the project canceled and laid-off or shipping a mediocre game and getting laid-off in lieu of completion bonus.