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> "I feel that when it comes to making AI, a better definition is something along the lines of "intelligence is the ability to make good choices when faced with

by ac500 13y ago

> "I feel that when it comes to making AI, a better definition is something along the lines of "intelligence is the ability to make good choices when faced with a decision"." What defines a good choice? What defines a bad choice? Saying "A true machine intelligence is one that makes good decisions" is a tautology -- it doesn't define anything. Rather, it just reframes one vague question into another. Intelligence is notoriously difficult to describe, so don't feel bad about it if you keep thinking of circular definitions. It's a tricky topic. Also, IMO there's a big problem with rational agents: In order to be actually useful/implementable, they must be defined in a specific logical framework. You can define a rational agent in a vague sense without any specific domain, but doing so does not solve any problems -- it again just results in tautology. But the problem with choosing a logical framework is shown by Godel's famous theorem. Simply put, any such agent in a well-defined domain will be confined to that domain of reasoning. To me, a machine that excels in some area of planning but can never think outside the box, is not intelligent on the same level as humans. Anyone advocating rational agent AI as true machine intelligence IMO will need to either find a flaw and disprove Godel's incompleteness theorem, or provide some system of logic that encapsulates all human reasoning (absurdly impossible IMO). On the other hand, I personally think true machine intelligence will be solved much more "organically", far separated from formal logic and more related to fuzzy pattern matching than rigid formal optimization. I really like this definition of intelligence: http://lesswrong.com/lw/vb/efficient_crossdomain_optimization/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/vb/efficient_crossdomain_optimizatio... Though I wouldn't claim it's the ultimate one, as it's still a bit vague. I think the key lies in what he describes as "cross domain" -- what is colloquially called "thinking outside the box", because this is the only thing humans seem extremely good at that every computer AI to date has failed at. Humans are capable of transcending formal logical systems and finding new truths that are unprovable from the original formal system. How is this possible? Godel proved that a formal system cannot ever determine this by itself, from axioms, without being inconsistent. IMO a true machine intelligence will also need to be capable of this formal-system-transcending property (which you can also call "cross domain thinking", or "thinking outside the box", or "creativity", or whatever).

calhoun137 13y ago
For a rational agent, a decision is good or bad based on it's preferences, which are described mathematically as part of the definition of the rational agent. So I don't believe it's tautological. I do agree with your statement that intelligence is difficult to describe. And for the record I never claimed the rational agent approach will achieve "true machine intelligence". Frankly, I don't even know what "true" machine intelligence is or would be. What I am very interested in however is how to create an AI that is capable of fooling a person into thinking it's intelligent, in other words an AI that can pass the Turing test. For that purpose I find the concept of a rational agent to be very helpful, in that it provides a solid foundation to work from. I'm also not worried about Godel's theorem at all. The statements that are undecidable are very obscure and basically never come into play in human decision making. I think Godel's result has very little practical application, if it has any at all; I certainly don't think it's relevant for AI. I agree that choosing a logical framework to work in presents many problems, but I don't agree that you have to disprove Godel's theorem to create an AI that can think outside the box.
- ac500 13y ago
  I also don't think you have to disprove Godel's theorem to create an AI that thinks outside the box, however, I believe you would have to for it to be a rational agent. A rational agent by definition operates strictly within the domain of a formal system. Thus by definition, a rational agent is in direct conflict with the notion of "thinking outside the box." Of course any simulation is implemented in some formal system, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the inherent problem with a rational agent is that they maximize utility within a formal system -- that is what they do, that is their entire purpose. Once we start talking about rational agents that can "think outside the box", or think beyond the formal system in which they're defined, we're no longer talking about rational agents. I agree with your belief that we may some day build AIs that think outside the box, I just don't see how it can be a rational agent. I think it will be much closer to a neural network, or probabilistic reasoning model, or some extremely "organic" or "fluid" device from which intelligent behavior organically emerges. Because if intelligence emerges from a strictly formalized framework, then Godel's theorems prove some very crippling limitations on what's possible within that fixed framework. FYI there is definitely a connection between Godel's theorem and intelligence, though it may not be immediately obvious. I would highly recommend this as fun learning material: http://ocw.mit.edu/high-school/courses/godel-escher-bach/ http://ocw.mit.edu/high-school/courses/godel-escher-bach/

by ac500 13y ago

calhoun137 13y ago

For a rational agent, a decision is good or bad based on it's preferences, which are described mathematically as part of the definition of the rational agent. So I don't believe it's tautological. I do agree with your statement that intelligence is difficult to describe. And for the record I never claimed the rational agent approach will achieve "true machine intelligence". Frankly, I don't even know what "true" machine intelligence is or would be. What I am very interested in however is how to create an AI that is capable of fooling a person into thinking it's intelligent, in other words an AI that can pass the Turing test. For that purpose I find the concept of a rational agent to be very helpful, in that it provides a solid foundation to work from. I'm also not worried about Godel's theorem at all. The statements that are undecidable are very obscure and basically never come into play in human decision making. I think Godel's result has very little practical application, if it has any at all; I certainly don't think it's relevant for AI. I agree that choosing a logical framework to work in presents many problems, but I don't agree that you have to disprove Godel's theorem to create an AI that can think outside the box.

ac500 13y ago
I also don't think you have to disprove Godel's theorem to create an AI that thinks outside the box, however, I believe you would have to for it to be a rational agent. A rational agent by definition operates strictly within the domain of a formal system. Thus by definition, a rational agent is in direct conflict with the notion of "thinking outside the box." Of course any simulation is implemented in some formal system, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the inherent problem with a rational agent is that they maximize utility within a formal system -- that is what they do, that is their entire purpose. Once we start talking about rational agents that can "think outside the box", or think beyond the formal system in which they're defined, we're no longer talking about rational agents. I agree with your belief that we may some day build AIs that think outside the box, I just don't see how it can be a rational agent. I think it will be much closer to a neural network, or probabilistic reasoning model, or some extremely "organic" or "fluid" device from which intelligent behavior organically emerges. Because if intelligence emerges from a strictly formalized framework, then Godel's theorems prove some very crippling limitations on what's possible within that fixed framework. FYI there is definitely a connection between Godel's theorem and intelligence, though it may not be immediately obvious. I would highly recommend this as fun learning material: http://ocw.mit.edu/high-school/courses/godel-escher-bach/ http://ocw.mit.edu/high-school/courses/godel-escher-bach/