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I wouldn't put all those comments in the same category. I think some of these guys are trying to say that to them, a woman can be both intelligent and attractiv
by neilk 18y ago
I wouldn't put all those comments in the same category. I think some of these guys are trying to say that to them, a woman can be both intelligent and attractive. So it's a form of self-praise (I am this advanced, and in a post-feminist way) rather than trying to exclude women. That said, it does show that they are still thinking about women primarily as objects to be gazed upon, rather than say, a colleague to learn from or work with.
I don't know if that is fixable, or if the fix would be desirable. Corporate environments have stamped out a lot of overt sexism, mostly due to the fear of lawsuits. But they can't make people be truly non-sexist, so mostly they just train people to fear any reference to sex or sexuality. Meanwhile, people still hold sexist opinions, privately. The glass ceiling is still there.
And as for the charge that the Web 2.0 environment is a huge boy's club; as far as I can tell that's true.
I have no idea what I would do if I was female in this industry. Probably go do something else, which is what most of them end up doing. Google has the best deal for women who want stability, but obviously not everyone can work there. Maybe consulting, or start your own company.
- axod 18y ago>> "Meanwhile, people still hold sexist opinions, privately" Most men are genetically programmed to enjoy looking at beautiful ladies. That makes them sexist... but there's not really any cure, and I do not see why we would want any cure.
- neilk 18y agoSee, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Your idea of being non-sexist is mixed up with being non-sexual. Sexism is discrimination. Sexuality is, what it is. Since being non-sexual is an impossibility you conclude that sexism is permanent. To me that seems very wrong. and I do not see why we would want any cure. For the same reasons we might want cures for racism. Wasted human potential. Economic injustice. I don't know how we get there, but somehow we have to have a world that's able to deal with sexuality but also not discriminate in the workplace on the basis of gender or attractiveness. Maybe better, objective metrics?
- TomOfTTB 18y agoTwo things... First, if you are going to make a distinction between sexism and sexuality than explain what the distinction is and not just your opinion of each thing. Second racism, wasted human potential and economic justice don't help us continue to exist as a species.
- neilk 18y agoSexism, at least in the workplace, is about: unequal rewards for work of equal value; hostile working environments that target individuals based on gender; and more besides. Sexuality is so complex that I hesitate to define it here, but do you really think it necessarily includes paying a woman less, promoting them less, listening to them less? Or puerile insults?
- axod 18y ago>> "Sexism is discrimination." But our minds are programmed to discriminate. If a nice looking lady is doing a presentation on SSL, most mens brains will be in a struggle over what to concentrate on. Her body, or the content of the talk.
- bdr 18y agoNo, that does not make most men sexist. You can enjoy it without extrapolating that physical judgment into other domains. And even if you can't help that, which I doubt, you can certainly stop yourself from posting the kind of comments described in the article.
- axod 18y agoBut exactly the same thing happens in other instances... "Awesome new image matching written in Java" --> "hahaha Java is so crap!!!" If someone can't make a good argument, they look for other things to respond to - language choice, photo, silly sounding name, etc. It's just a fact of life and I don't think anyone should take it personally.