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Something I find immensely troubling about these studies is that examples of high status body language are frequently things that I personally find extremely ob

by JDGM 13y ago

Something I find immensely troubling about these studies is that examples of high status body language are frequently things that I personally find extremely obnoxious or social-norm breakingly rude, to the point that I have often called people out on it. The feet on the table one, for example. To what extent is that signaling high-status simply because it's a very rude thing to do? Is it implausible that a study might come out one day arguing that picking one's nose or scratching one's arse in front of someone is high-status body language for the reason that it is disrespectful to the other party therefore must signal a confidence in the asymmetry of power? I know it's not quite the same, but certainly as a teacher if my students don't sit "properly" on their chairs then I'll make clear that is unacceptable. The older they get, the better they should know, and the harsher I'll be. I've even sent students out of the room for it. In situations where my higher status isn't assumed, the "calling out", however, does not have to be verbal. This picture in particular http://blog.bufferapp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Screen-Shot-2013-04-17-at-4.50.09-PM.png http://blog.bufferapp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Screen-... annoys me just to look at it, and reminds me of formal occasions when someone has been sitting like that and I have conspicuously adjusted my own position so I am sitting straight-backed and upright. I can't remember a time when they haven't broken the pose and adjusted their position likewise. Sometimes it might take an uncomfortable moment of silence, but they will break it. Am I adopting higher-status body language than them and they are keeping up? Maybe, but I don't think so - I believe sitting neatly and smartly in response to their pose just makes them (an adult) feel rather silly and they adjust to nullify that feeling. I mean, if you were being interviewed for a job by someone sitting in one of these supposedly "high-status" but actually pretty damn rude positions, you wouldn't think the interview had even begun yet, would you? Having read other replies in this thread, perhaps I'm wrong, and this means in monkey times (technical term) I'd be the male who beat up the other male for signaling challenging body language - and I doubt I would have lasted long given repeat trials. However, I don't think of it like that. It is simply a matter of respect and etiquette. I'm not the one lying back on my chair or exposing my crotch. "Sit properly!" My experience of social-norms is informed by growing up in middle class England and spending a long time living in Japan. I accept that in both cultures signaling deep understanding of what is polite is the higher-level currency of status. In other parts of the world, and for lower social strata, I appreciate it can be very different. Additionally, in the picture I linked, the fact that the first guy is exposing his feet is probably actually more egregious to my sensibilities than his pose. If he were wearing a suit and smart shoes I think I would respect him more and consider the pose acceptable, I suppose in some way "earned". As it stands, there's just something very - and I realise I may be about to lose anyone on my side up to this point - "punchable" about his face... A final point is that while I find myself in many situations where these displays are considered vulgar, to the point that they counter-signal by betraying a lack of etiquette-knowledge, they do seem to play an important role in the "game" of socialising. I instinctively feel like a "douche" laying my arm across an empty chair next to me or positioning my legs in a way that suggests what is between them is enormous, yet I'll do it anyway when the situation is right and I'll justify it the same way I would "show off" dancing or playing an instrument. But not at work: http://youtu.be/sEtQj9wuqhs?t=42s http://youtu.be/sEtQj9wuqhs?t=42s.

derefr 13y ago
> Am I adopting higher-status body language than them and they are keeping up? You're playing a secondary game, countersignalling by conspicuously assuming a lower-status pose. You're both aware that you could instead assume their pose and play chicken with them about who will submit first. By "choosing the high road," you're saying that you've noticed the status game in play, and that now their implicit status move has become an explicit status move. And humans have strong norms about the group disapproving of explicit dominance. (See: democracy.) So when the person displaying the dominant behavior realizes they've been "found out", they stop. Also, > The feet on the table one, for example. To what extent is that signaling high-status simply because it's a very rude thing to do? To answer this, consider the converse: to what extent could the fact that it's a rude thing to do be explained by anything other than it being a show of dominance? In the case of picking one's nose, it can be considered rude because it is a private grooming behavior considered to be not especially hygenic by modern standards. It exposes bits of one's internal "grossness" to others. It would be uncouth even without dominance circuitry. In the case of putting one's feet up on a table, though, I don't much see what could be wrong with it other than that it's a show of dominance. Perhaps we might be slightly wired to predict that feet are smelly or covered in dirt, but in the modern white-collar work environment this isn't the case--so it shouldn't be rude. And yet it is. So it's a dominance behavior. (And in the case of scratching one's arse, I'm not quite sure--that doesn't seem dominant to me, but nor does it seem rude. It just seems like an artificial restriction created by some Tough environments[1] to stratify people by "those who can ignore all their bodily urges and pretend they don't exist for longest." This is called etiquette, and is a whole different kind of mating-fitness-signalling--more like birdsong than apes beating one-another up.) [1] http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/1410/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/1410/
- JDGM 13y ago
  Good reply. The feet on the table did occur to me as one which I could have the wrong way around and while only "slightly wired to predict that feet are smelly or covered in dirt" may be true (seems unintuitive to me though), I think the perceived discrepancy is cultural as much as anything. I've noticed the ickyness of putting feet on tables is almost universally invisible to Americans, while in Japan it would seem completely unacceptable along with a whole host of other related customs, for example, the taking off of shoes and the special slippers to wear when you use the bathroom. Japanese ask me extensively about UK customs regarding shoes and feet, it's evidently considered a hygiene issue, much like their showering before bathing. In the UK the foot thing is probably a bit of both, varying from person to person, family to family. I was brought up such that I wouldn't ever consider putting my feet up on a table, even when completely alone in my own house. Our trains have signs telling you not to rest your feet on seats, I wonder if US trains do. What you say actually now reduces the offense that I would take if an American put their feet up in front of me. I would think "well for them this isn't considered gross, just a sign of relaxation that at worst is dominance behaviour" and I'd attempt to force myself not to be disgusted by it.

by JDGM 13y ago

derefr 13y ago

> Am I adopting higher-status body language than them and they are keeping up? You're playing a secondary game, countersignalling by conspicuously assuming a lower-status pose. You're both aware that you could instead assume their pose and play chicken with them about who will submit first. By "choosing the high road," you're saying that you've noticed the status game in play, and that now their implicit status move has become an explicit status move. And humans have strong norms about the group disapproving of explicit dominance. (See: democracy.) So when the person displaying the dominant behavior realizes they've been "found out", they stop. Also, > The feet on the table one, for example. To what extent is that signaling high-status simply because it's a very rude thing to do? To answer this, consider the converse: to what extent could the fact that it's a rude thing to do be explained by anything other than it being a show of dominance? In the case of picking one's nose, it can be considered rude because it is a private grooming behavior considered to be not especially hygenic by modern standards. It exposes bits of one's internal "grossness" to others. It would be uncouth even without dominance circuitry. In the case of putting one's feet up on a table, though, I don't much see what could be wrong with it other than that it's a show of dominance. Perhaps we might be slightly wired to predict that feet are smelly or covered in dirt, but in the modern white-collar work environment this isn't the case--so it shouldn't be rude. And yet it is. So it's a dominance behavior. (And in the case of scratching one's arse, I'm not quite sure--that doesn't seem dominant to me, but nor does it seem rude. It just seems like an artificial restriction created by some Tough environments[1] to stratify people by "those who can ignore all their bodily urges and pretend they don't exist for longest." This is called etiquette, and is a whole different kind of mating-fitness-signalling--more like birdsong than apes beating one-another up.) [1] http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/1410/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/1410/

JDGM 13y ago
Good reply. The feet on the table did occur to me as one which I could have the wrong way around and while only "slightly wired to predict that feet are smelly or covered in dirt" may be true (seems unintuitive to me though), I think the perceived discrepancy is cultural as much as anything. I've noticed the ickyness of putting feet on tables is almost universally invisible to Americans, while in Japan it would seem completely unacceptable along with a whole host of other related customs, for example, the taking off of shoes and the special slippers to wear when you use the bathroom. Japanese ask me extensively about UK customs regarding shoes and feet, it's evidently considered a hygiene issue, much like their showering before bathing. In the UK the foot thing is probably a bit of both, varying from person to person, family to family. I was brought up such that I wouldn't ever consider putting my feet up on a table, even when completely alone in my own house. Our trains have signs telling you not to rest your feet on seats, I wonder if US trains do. What you say actually now reduces the offense that I would take if an American put their feet up in front of me. I would think "well for them this isn't considered gross, just a sign of relaxation that at worst is dominance behaviour" and I'd attempt to force myself not to be disgusted by it.