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I think this speaks to conscientious language design combined with the use of LLVM as a backend. Pretty excited about Rust, it's the best (virtually) no-compro

I think this speaks to conscientious language design combined with the use of LLVM as a backend. Pretty excited about Rust, it's the best (virtually) no-compromise developing option for systems work. Curious to see where it starts to actually bite people as popular use grows. I really wish they'd put more effort into community/outreach though.

drivebyacct2 13y ago
/r/rust is great. Mozilla/#rust is great. I think a bit of it simply has to do with Rust's immaturity. For example, there are no real http libs client or server to speak of because the scheduler rewrite is blocking. Oh well, I get the impression that stuff is all simply a matter of time. Pcwalton's blog is great if you're interested in more rust stuff.
- codewright 13y ago
  I've spent some time in their IRC channel and tried to use the language at a few points. They're nice people but not really interested in helping anybody use the language that isn't an intern working on it. Or at least, that was the case at the time I was on Mozilla's IRC server. The language isn't positioned for wider use the way Go was when it was first announced.
  - pcwalton 13y ago
    That's because we announced the language earlier in its lifecycle than did Go, relatively speaking. (Graydon had initial designs for quite some time before development really started, which is why you sometimes hear that the language is older, but development didn't really start until 2009-2010.) We're definitely interested in helping people learn to use the language. Hence the tutorial, Niko's, Brian's, and my blog posts, and so on. Of course, the manual and learning material are in dire need of improvement in many areas; please bear with us, as it's a work in progress.
    - codewright 13y ago
      Okay? But when is somebody going to fix the documentation and keep it in sync with the language's development? I've never once had a problem with Go's documentation and it started out as a relatively casual project that is more peripheral to Google's interests than Servo is to Mozilla's. Making a language be able to get picked up by the wider programming community means somebody has to spend time on things other than the compiler. Lots of time.
      - pcwalton 13y ago
        I don't disagree. The documentation needs work. That said, the compiler needs a lot of work as well, as those who have used the language for any amount of time can attest to. Everyone sees the dreaded "internal compiler error" message. Everyone encounters borrow check and code generation bugs. Everyone misses a working package management system and pretty printer. Everyone bemoans the slowness of compilation for small programs. These are things you just didn't see for Go when it was announced--because it was Google-internal then. We intend to fix the documentation before calling it 1.0. But compilers are complex, especially for a language with a rich type system and a nontrivial static analysis built in (the borrow check). There are many things to do, from documentation to bug fixing to feature work (macros and default methods are unfinished) to tooling work. Note, however, that the code examples in the documentation are kept up to date and enforced via the test suite. So there may be inaccuracies in the prose, but we do perform automated quality control as best we can.
        codewright 13y ago
        Good to know. The package management is going to be particular interest to me.
      - steveklabnik 13y ago
        I specifically will be devoting lots of time to Rust's documentation, but I've been waiting for the syntax changes to settle down. 0.6 fixed a lot of that.
    - eridius 13y ago
  - bjz_ 13y ago
    They're nice people but not really interested in helping anybody use the language that isn't an intern working on it. I definitely haven't had that experience. They have limited hours in the day, but they try their hardest to be of assistance.
  - drivebyacct2 13y ago
    I would agree with the last line, but I don't think that's a bad thing and I think the language can still be used plenty widely. As for IRC, I was in the other day asking about trait usage - static vs dynamic. I got the 10-year-PL-designer explanation and had the ELI20 explanation from a few other people. I walked away with a rough understanding and working code. That's what I'm looking for in IRC. Quite pleased!
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >Or at least, that was the case at the time I was on Mozilla's IRC server. That. It can vary with time, mood etc. It's not like there are that many people hanging around at the channel yet, or using the language in general. Heck, it's not even beta or frozen yet! The mailing list I found to be quite friendly.
  - steveklabnik 13y ago
    I've received a _ton_ of help from the IRC channel, you might have caught it at a bad time.

drivebyacct2 13y ago

/r/rust is great. Mozilla/#rust is great. I think a bit of it simply has to do with Rust's immaturity. For example, there are no real http libs client or server to speak of because the scheduler rewrite is blocking. Oh well, I get the impression that stuff is all simply a matter of time. Pcwalton's blog is great if you're interested in more rust stuff.

codewright 13y ago
I've spent some time in their IRC channel and tried to use the language at a few points. They're nice people but not really interested in helping anybody use the language that isn't an intern working on it. Or at least, that was the case at the time I was on Mozilla's IRC server. The language isn't positioned for wider use the way Go was when it was first announced.
- pcwalton 13y ago
  That's because we announced the language earlier in its lifecycle than did Go, relatively speaking. (Graydon had initial designs for quite some time before development really started, which is why you sometimes hear that the language is older, but development didn't really start until 2009-2010.) We're definitely interested in helping people learn to use the language. Hence the tutorial, Niko's, Brian's, and my blog posts, and so on. Of course, the manual and learning material are in dire need of improvement in many areas; please bear with us, as it's a work in progress.
  - codewright 13y ago
    Okay? But when is somebody going to fix the documentation and keep it in sync with the language's development? I've never once had a problem with Go's documentation and it started out as a relatively casual project that is more peripheral to Google's interests than Servo is to Mozilla's. Making a language be able to get picked up by the wider programming community means somebody has to spend time on things other than the compiler. Lots of time.
    - pcwalton 13y ago
      I don't disagree. The documentation needs work. That said, the compiler needs a lot of work as well, as those who have used the language for any amount of time can attest to. Everyone sees the dreaded "internal compiler error" message. Everyone encounters borrow check and code generation bugs. Everyone misses a working package management system and pretty printer. Everyone bemoans the slowness of compilation for small programs. These are things you just didn't see for Go when it was announced--because it was Google-internal then. We intend to fix the documentation before calling it 1.0. But compilers are complex, especially for a language with a rich type system and a nontrivial static analysis built in (the borrow check). There are many things to do, from documentation to bug fixing to feature work (macros and default methods are unfinished) to tooling work. Note, however, that the code examples in the documentation are kept up to date and enforced via the test suite. So there may be inaccuracies in the prose, but we do perform automated quality control as best we can.
      - codewright 13y ago
        Good to know. The package management is going to be particular interest to me.
    - steveklabnik 13y ago
      I specifically will be devoting lots of time to Rust's documentation, but I've been waiting for the syntax changes to settle down. 0.6 fixed a lot of that.
  - eridius 13y ago
- bjz_ 13y ago
  They're nice people but not really interested in helping anybody use the language that isn't an intern working on it. I definitely haven't had that experience. They have limited hours in the day, but they try their hardest to be of assistance.
- drivebyacct2 13y ago
  I would agree with the last line, but I don't think that's a bad thing and I think the language can still be used plenty widely. As for IRC, I was in the other day asking about trait usage - static vs dynamic. I got the 10-year-PL-designer explanation and had the ELI20 explanation from a few other people. I walked away with a rough understanding and working code. That's what I'm looking for in IRC. Quite pleased!
- coldtea 13y ago
  >Or at least, that was the case at the time I was on Mozilla's IRC server. That. It can vary with time, mood etc. It's not like there are that many people hanging around at the channel yet, or using the language in general. Heck, it's not even beta or frozen yet! The mailing list I found to be quite friendly.
- steveklabnik 13y ago
  I've received a _ton_ of help from the IRC channel, you might have caught it at a bad time.