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Borrowing from Arnold Kling's "three axes", generally speaking: - Libertarians evaluate things on a freedom/tyranny axis. - Republicans evaluate things on a c

by enoch_r 14y ago

Borrowing from Arnold Kling's "three axes", generally speaking: - Libertarians evaluate things on a freedom/tyranny axis. - Republicans evaluate things on a civilization/savagery axis. - Democrats evaluate things on a fair/unfair axis. I think that explains Republican voting behavior here fairly well. They're not for small government because they're libertarian; they're for small government because the US is historically connected with libertarian philosophies.

pekk 14y ago
Not sure about this. If I think it is savagery to have lots of people dying without healthcare, that's a pretty Democrat sentiment isn't it? Or are we talking about the parties as they were decades ago rather than today?
- mseebach 14y ago
  So that's clearly "unfair" on the Democrat axis. Old school Republicans should be for some measure of properly financed universal healthcare (oh, hi there, Mitt), but there is also the financial end to consider: overspending is moving away from civilization, and towards savagery.
- erikpukinskis 14y ago
  You're using the figurative version of "savagery". I think what republicans are opposed to is the older form of the word "savage" i.e. "the way of life of those people less evolved than I".
rorrr 14y ago
> Republicans evaluate things on a civilization/savagery axis By pushing creationism into schools? By denying gay rights? By pushing anti-abortion nonsense? That's so incorrect.
lobster_johnson 14y ago
Republicans seem to care less about civilization than "family", more precisely "conserving [Christian] family values". That's why it's linked to all the nonsensical, irrational thinking about gay marriage and abortion; they think it violates the ideals of the traditional Christian family. It cannot be equated with "civilization" unless you somehow believe that those things are uncivilized, which makes the entire axis analysis tautological.
- sirclueless 14y ago
  There are certainly Republicans who are all for family values for other reasons besides Christian morals. They equate this with civilization not in contrast with uncivilization, the question for them isn't "civilization vs. savagery" exactly, it's more nearly "civilization vs. decadence." Open homosexuality and abortion call to mind the Roman Empire in its decline, not the Dark Ages. A really powerful argument in this vein comes from the Nixon tapes. It's very much worth listening to, no matter what your views on the matter are, because I think it really crystallizes why conservatism and the religious right have so much common ground. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TivVcfSBVSM#t=5m27s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TivVcfSBVSM#t=5m27s
  - lobster_johnson 14y ago
    Do you know if there are transcripts of the Nixon tapes? (Personal quirk, I can't do audio-only media as I just zone out and stop listening.) Edit: Found it: http://nixontapes.org http://nixontapes.org. It's a lot, which one should I look at?
    - sirclueless 14y ago
      Here's a transcript of the conversation I linked above. http://www.csdp.org/research/nixonpot.txt http://www.csdp.org/research/nixonpot.txt

by enoch_r 14y ago

pekk 14y ago

Not sure about this. If I think it is savagery to have lots of people dying without healthcare, that's a pretty Democrat sentiment isn't it? Or are we talking about the parties as they were decades ago rather than today?

mseebach 14y ago
So that's clearly "unfair" on the Democrat axis. Old school Republicans should be for some measure of properly financed universal healthcare (oh, hi there, Mitt), but there is also the financial end to consider: overspending is moving away from civilization, and towards savagery.
erikpukinskis 14y ago
You're using the figurative version of "savagery". I think what republicans are opposed to is the older form of the word "savage" i.e. "the way of life of those people less evolved than I".

rorrr 14y ago

> Republicans evaluate things on a civilization/savagery axis By pushing creationism into schools? By denying gay rights? By pushing anti-abortion nonsense? That's so incorrect.

lobster_johnson 14y ago

Republicans seem to care less about civilization than "family", more precisely "conserving [Christian] family values". That's why it's linked to all the nonsensical, irrational thinking about gay marriage and abortion; they think it violates the ideals of the traditional Christian family. It cannot be equated with "civilization" unless you somehow believe that those things are uncivilized, which makes the entire axis analysis tautological.

sirclueless 14y ago
There are certainly Republicans who are all for family values for other reasons besides Christian morals. They equate this with civilization not in contrast with uncivilization, the question for them isn't "civilization vs. savagery" exactly, it's more nearly "civilization vs. decadence." Open homosexuality and abortion call to mind the Roman Empire in its decline, not the Dark Ages. A really powerful argument in this vein comes from the Nixon tapes. It's very much worth listening to, no matter what your views on the matter are, because I think it really crystallizes why conservatism and the religious right have so much common ground. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TivVcfSBVSM#t=5m27s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TivVcfSBVSM#t=5m27s
- lobster_johnson 14y ago
  Do you know if there are transcripts of the Nixon tapes? (Personal quirk, I can't do audio-only media as I just zone out and stop listening.) Edit: Found it: http://nixontapes.org http://nixontapes.org. It's a lot, which one should I look at?
  - sirclueless 14y ago
    Here's a transcript of the conversation I linked above. http://www.csdp.org/research/nixonpot.txt http://www.csdp.org/research/nixonpot.txt