4 ms·

The thing that I notice most as an American living in England is the overwhelming amount of bureaucracy in every aspect of life here, and how it's just taken in

The thing that I notice most as an American living in England is the overwhelming amount of bureaucracy in every aspect of life here, and how it's just taken in stride as though nothing can be done about it. You go to the swimming pool and try to pay your 3 pounds to go swimming, but they can't give you the blue armband for the 10:00 session because it's only 9:40, but they can give you the yellow armband for the 9:00 session, but that means you'll have to get out of the pool when the 9:00 session ends, but you're free to go upstairs and have a cup of tea until 9:55. Me: "But that's insane. The pool is open all day" Woman: [look of non-understanding, since this is how they've done things for 30 years therefore it is unquestionably correct, and nobody has ever complained before, and certainly one should know not to come to the swimming pool near the end of the hour, and who wouldn't welcome the opportunity to have a nice cup of tea?] Me: OK, I'll take the armband for the 9:00 session, and keep 3 extra pounds in my trunks in case somebody asks me to leave in ten minutes so that I can walk back here and pay you again then. Repeat that experience for every interaction with every business or government entity you deal with ever. You just want to give up and never leave the house. Until the internet goes down and you have to deal with British Telecom, at which point you start looking for property in France.

colinhowe 14y ago
This is wildly different from place to place... which is almost sadder. Some places have so little bureaucracy it's amazing. Some places are a mess of incompetency. In my experience, bureaucracy is a sign of lots of incompetency to follow.
arethuza 14y ago
I haven't encounted a swimming pool like that in the last 30 years, but I give you British Telecom customer service - it is truly awful. However, simple fix that for - don't use BT as an ISP - I don't know where you are but we have about 20 to choose from.
- hackerboos 14y ago
  My recent experience trying to get BT Infinity installed... 1. Initially called and asked for BT Infinity and was promptly told it wasn't yet available on our street. I therefore opted for BT Total (ADSL). All installed no problems. 2. Checked the website a month later. Checker tells me that Infinity is available. I call BT, make the appointment and wait. 3. BT engineer turns up and starts installation. He then goes off to the cab and returns quickly telling me that the cab they have me listed on is wrong. I'm registered as using is about 2 miles away. Far away from this cab. BT engineer tells me he will inform "head office" so they can sort it and get Infinity installed. 4. BT make a new appointment and another engineer is sent out who repeats the same steps as above because nobody has told him and it hasn't been fixed. Engineer leaves. No Infinity. 5. I get a SMS message asking me to rebook my appointment and after calling I talk with a operator who is ready to put me through the whole process again until I protest asking to speak with somebody who knows more. I get on the phone to this person who tells me that Infinity is not available where I live. I'm told to check back in a few months but get this...I'll have to rebook the appointment and get a engineer out before I find out if it's actually available. WTF...
  - Osmium 14y ago
    Counterpoint: Fibre has literally just been made available in my area. I just had Plusnet (an ISP wholly-owned by BT which uses BT fibre) install fibre broadband, and it was done quickly and flawlessly. Arrived when they said they would and it took 5 minutes. Speeds decent too (50 Mbps down / 20 Mbps up, though I was told it might take a week to reach full speed).
    - hackerboos 14y ago
      To be fair to BT I had Infinity before I moved and they installed it quickly and easily. My point I guess is that when you fall outside of the A->B route you get tangled in this mess.
- jasonkester 14y ago
  don't use BT as an ISP No! That's what they want you to do. Because then it means they get to care even less. It's still their infrastructure and therefore their van that needs to come out to your house to fix things, but you've added yet another layer onto the process. They've worked their contracts with the ISPs so that the ISP can't actually do anything in your name, so you still end up on the phone with them, but you're not their customer so you can't mention anything being wrong with the internet as clearly that's your ISP's problem. No, now "the phone line is really scratchy" is your only line of attack and god help you if you've contracted that out to a 3rd party (or worse, your ISP itself!) Then they've cleverly broken off the van that comes to fix things (BT OpenReach) as a separate company that you can't talk to, so you have to go through BT's call center, which will helpfully tell you that there's no fault, and that it will cost $150 to send a van out if it turns out they can't find anything (d'ya feel lucky, punk?). Fortunately, the van guys are actually good. And BT's infrastructure is so terrible that there's always at least one fault they can find. Usually about 5 meters further down the line than last time they were had the truck out two weeks ago. One day somebody will lay some fiber that has no BT-ness associated with it at all. And they'll get everybody's business.
  - arethuza 14y ago
    "One day somebody will lay some fiber that has no BT-ness associated with it at all." Virgin?
saryant 14y ago
If you find that bad, I don't recommend dealing with the French OFII.
thisone 14y ago
your local pool has sessions? Here you pay your money (or you have a monthly pass to the entire sports complex), you go swimming. Outside of swim practice, no one has ever mentioned times. Certainly no arm bands. Perhaps we're lucky up North, I haven't had any nightmare dealings with government, and I'm including the Border Agency in that (so far).
- arethuza 14y ago
  Even doing tax returns (which most people don't have to do) seems pretty straightforward - usually takes me less than 30 minutes in the years I do it myself.
radio4fan 14y ago
> at which point you start looking for property in France Good lord; you'd regret that. French bureaucracy is a hundred times worse than that in the UK. It's one of the biggest reasons I left France. And in French swimming pools you are required to wear speedo-type trunks. You will not be allowed to swim in anything else.

colinhowe 14y ago

This is wildly different from place to place... which is almost sadder. Some places have so little bureaucracy it's amazing. Some places are a mess of incompetency. In my experience, bureaucracy is a sign of lots of incompetency to follow.

arethuza 14y ago

I haven't encounted a swimming pool like that in the last 30 years, but I give you British Telecom customer service - it is truly awful. However, simple fix that for - don't use BT as an ISP - I don't know where you are but we have about 20 to choose from.

hackerboos 14y ago
My recent experience trying to get BT Infinity installed... 1. Initially called and asked for BT Infinity and was promptly told it wasn't yet available on our street. I therefore opted for BT Total (ADSL). All installed no problems. 2. Checked the website a month later. Checker tells me that Infinity is available. I call BT, make the appointment and wait. 3. BT engineer turns up and starts installation. He then goes off to the cab and returns quickly telling me that the cab they have me listed on is wrong. I'm registered as using is about 2 miles away. Far away from this cab. BT engineer tells me he will inform "head office" so they can sort it and get Infinity installed. 4. BT make a new appointment and another engineer is sent out who repeats the same steps as above because nobody has told him and it hasn't been fixed. Engineer leaves. No Infinity. 5. I get a SMS message asking me to rebook my appointment and after calling I talk with a operator who is ready to put me through the whole process again until I protest asking to speak with somebody who knows more. I get on the phone to this person who tells me that Infinity is not available where I live. I'm told to check back in a few months but get this...I'll have to rebook the appointment and get a engineer out before I find out if it's actually available. WTF...
- Osmium 14y ago
  Counterpoint: Fibre has literally just been made available in my area. I just had Plusnet (an ISP wholly-owned by BT which uses BT fibre) install fibre broadband, and it was done quickly and flawlessly. Arrived when they said they would and it took 5 minutes. Speeds decent too (50 Mbps down / 20 Mbps up, though I was told it might take a week to reach full speed).
  - hackerboos 14y ago
    To be fair to BT I had Infinity before I moved and they installed it quickly and easily. My point I guess is that when you fall outside of the A->B route you get tangled in this mess.
jasonkester 14y ago
don't use BT as an ISP No! That's what they want you to do. Because then it means they get to care even less. It's still their infrastructure and therefore their van that needs to come out to your house to fix things, but you've added yet another layer onto the process. They've worked their contracts with the ISPs so that the ISP can't actually do anything in your name, so you still end up on the phone with them, but you're not their customer so you can't mention anything being wrong with the internet as clearly that's your ISP's problem. No, now "the phone line is really scratchy" is your only line of attack and god help you if you've contracted that out to a 3rd party (or worse, your ISP itself!) Then they've cleverly broken off the van that comes to fix things (BT OpenReach) as a separate company that you can't talk to, so you have to go through BT's call center, which will helpfully tell you that there's no fault, and that it will cost $150 to send a van out if it turns out they can't find anything (d'ya feel lucky, punk?). Fortunately, the van guys are actually good. And BT's infrastructure is so terrible that there's always at least one fault they can find. Usually about 5 meters further down the line than last time they were had the truck out two weeks ago. One day somebody will lay some fiber that has no BT-ness associated with it at all. And they'll get everybody's business.
- arethuza 14y ago
  "One day somebody will lay some fiber that has no BT-ness associated with it at all." Virgin?

saryant 14y ago

If you find that bad, I don't recommend dealing with the French OFII.

thisone 14y ago

your local pool has sessions? Here you pay your money (or you have a monthly pass to the entire sports complex), you go swimming. Outside of swim practice, no one has ever mentioned times. Certainly no arm bands. Perhaps we're lucky up North, I haven't had any nightmare dealings with government, and I'm including the Border Agency in that (so far).

arethuza 14y ago
Even doing tax returns (which most people don't have to do) seems pretty straightforward - usually takes me less than 30 minutes in the years I do it myself.

radio4fan 14y ago

> at which point you start looking for property in France Good lord; you'd regret that. French bureaucracy is a hundred times worse than that in the UK. It's one of the biggest reasons I left France. And in French swimming pools you are required to wear speedo-type trunks. You will not be allowed to swim in anything else.