4 ms·

100% fault is your own. Regular online businesses have a hard time operating merchant accounts, much less these kind of sites. Bitcoin is no safer than online p

100% fault is your own. Regular online businesses have a hard time operating merchant accounts, much less these kind of sites. Bitcoin is no safer than online poker was in the US (I had a little of my money in Full Tilt, and a lot of 'winnings', and got $0 out of it). BTC operates in a pretty gray market. The companies involved are not regulated and perhaps violating existing regulations. Mt Gox et al are not ETrade. Any money in BTC should be money you are totally OK with losing.

foobarqux 14y ago
Fulltilt players actually lost their balances?
- krschultz 14y ago
  I think it depends on what amount of your balance was your own money vs other people's money. My balance on the day the feds shutdown FT was around $500, but I had started out with money my roommate transfered to my account so $0 of it was deposited by me. He had put in $100 originally and his balance on the day FT shutdown as over $1000, and he got nothing back either. (Edit, after a quick google search, it appears that FT is just now starting the refund process. http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/full-tilt-claims-administrator-announced-refund-process-begin-shortly-588203/ http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/full-tilt-claims-adminis...)
  - waterlesscloud 14y ago
    Apparently as a Full Tilt user I'm a "fraud" "victim". Excellent work by my government to protect me on this one.
    - mikeyouse 14y ago
      Apparently as a Full Tilt user I'm a "fraud" "victim". Excellent work by my government to protect me on this one. You do realize full tilt was a giant ponzi scheme and that the owners looted hundreds of millions of dollars from players' accounts right?[1][2] But don't let that get in the way of your snarky libertarianism. [1] http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/09/20/full-tilt-ponzi/ http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/09/20/full-tilt-p... [2] http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324050304578410983313986810.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732405030457841...
      - waterlesscloud 14y ago
        "But don't let that get in the way of your snarky libertarianism." --Snark pot, meet snark kettle. The most amusing thing in the fraud complaint is what the US Govt alleges as the cause: The US Govt's regulations regarding money transfer into gambling sites. So yes, job well done, US Govt. Job well done. "The Amended Complaint further alleges that, in or about the summer of 2010, Full Tilt Poker’s payment processing channels were so disrupted that the company faced increasing difficulty attempting to collect funds from players in the United States. Rather than disclose this fact, Full Tilt Poker simply credited players’ online gambling accounts with money that had never actually been collected from the players’ bank accounts."
        mikeyouse 14y ago
        It's somehow the government's fault that the owners of FT were paying themselves literally hundreds of millions of dollars out of player accounts? Pokerstars was subject to the same laws, yet they had fully segregated accounts and could pay everyone 100% of their account balance. ----------------------------------------- According to a balance sheet prepared by Full Tilt Poker, as of March 31, 2011, Full Tilt Poker owed players from around the world over approximately $390,695,788 but had only approximately $59,579,413 in its bank accounts. Full Tilt Poker relied on new deposits from players to ensure its ability to fund withdrawals to players’ accounts. Rather than protect player funds as promised, Full Tilt Poker distributed hundreds of millions of dollars to its owners… Defendant Lederer personally received at least approximately $42 million, including approximately $37,856,010.92 in ownership distributions and at least $4 million in “profit sharing” payments… Defendant Ferguson was allocated approximately $85,161,305.88 in distributions. Tiltware records reflect that approximately $25 million of this sum was actually transferred to Ferguson’s personal accounts, with the remaining balance characterized as “owed” to Ferguson. ----------------------------------------- Should internet gambling be illegal? Probably not. Was it illegal when FT was operating? Definitely. Is that somehow an excuse to engage in massive fraud?
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
    - consz 14y ago
      >Apparently as a Full Tilt user I'm a "fraud" "victim". Are you saying you knew about the fraud at FT (disqualifying the 'victim' part), or you don't believe they committed fraud?
- jschneier00 14y ago
  Fulltilt was operating against its license/charter agreement so they had to shutdown once it came to light (they were mixing deposits with operating expenses). Once shut down they couldn't afford to pay everyone back so they were subsequently sold to PokerStars once the DOJ gave their approval of the deal with the condition that Stars pays everyone back. So while the money should be returning to US players soon (FTP is actually open for business again not in the US) it has yet to happen.

foobarqux 14y ago

Fulltilt players actually lost their balances?

krschultz 14y ago
I think it depends on what amount of your balance was your own money vs other people's money. My balance on the day the feds shutdown FT was around $500, but I had started out with money my roommate transfered to my account so $0 of it was deposited by me. He had put in $100 originally and his balance on the day FT shutdown as over $1000, and he got nothing back either. (Edit, after a quick google search, it appears that FT is just now starting the refund process. http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/full-tilt-claims-administrator-announced-refund-process-begin-shortly-588203/ http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/full-tilt-claims-adminis...)
- waterlesscloud 14y ago
  Apparently as a Full Tilt user I'm a "fraud" "victim". Excellent work by my government to protect me on this one.
  - mikeyouse 14y ago
    Apparently as a Full Tilt user I'm a "fraud" "victim". Excellent work by my government to protect me on this one. You do realize full tilt was a giant ponzi scheme and that the owners looted hundreds of millions of dollars from players' accounts right?[1][2] But don't let that get in the way of your snarky libertarianism. [1] http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/09/20/full-tilt-ponzi/ http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/09/20/full-tilt-p... [2] http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324050304578410983313986810.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732405030457841...
    - waterlesscloud 14y ago
      "But don't let that get in the way of your snarky libertarianism." --Snark pot, meet snark kettle. The most amusing thing in the fraud complaint is what the US Govt alleges as the cause: The US Govt's regulations regarding money transfer into gambling sites. So yes, job well done, US Govt. Job well done. "The Amended Complaint further alleges that, in or about the summer of 2010, Full Tilt Poker’s payment processing channels were so disrupted that the company faced increasing difficulty attempting to collect funds from players in the United States. Rather than disclose this fact, Full Tilt Poker simply credited players’ online gambling accounts with money that had never actually been collected from the players’ bank accounts."
      - mikeyouse 14y ago
        It's somehow the government's fault that the owners of FT were paying themselves literally hundreds of millions of dollars out of player accounts? Pokerstars was subject to the same laws, yet they had fully segregated accounts and could pay everyone 100% of their account balance. ----------------------------------------- According to a balance sheet prepared by Full Tilt Poker, as of March 31, 2011, Full Tilt Poker owed players from around the world over approximately $390,695,788 but had only approximately $59,579,413 in its bank accounts. Full Tilt Poker relied on new deposits from players to ensure its ability to fund withdrawals to players’ accounts. Rather than protect player funds as promised, Full Tilt Poker distributed hundreds of millions of dollars to its owners… Defendant Lederer personally received at least approximately $42 million, including approximately $37,856,010.92 in ownership distributions and at least $4 million in “profit sharing” payments… Defendant Ferguson was allocated approximately $85,161,305.88 in distributions. Tiltware records reflect that approximately $25 million of this sum was actually transferred to Ferguson’s personal accounts, with the remaining balance characterized as “owed” to Ferguson. ----------------------------------------- Should internet gambling be illegal? Probably not. Was it illegal when FT was operating? Definitely. Is that somehow an excuse to engage in massive fraud?
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
  - consz 14y ago
    >Apparently as a Full Tilt user I'm a "fraud" "victim". Are you saying you knew about the fraud at FT (disqualifying the 'victim' part), or you don't believe they committed fraud?
jschneier00 14y ago
Fulltilt was operating against its license/charter agreement so they had to shutdown once it came to light (they were mixing deposits with operating expenses). Once shut down they couldn't afford to pay everyone back so they were subsequently sold to PokerStars once the DOJ gave their approval of the deal with the condition that Stars pays everyone back. So while the money should be returning to US players soon (FTP is actually open for business again not in the US) it has yet to happen.