5 ms·

The Saudi Marathon Man

74 points by sasvari 14y ago

jlarocco 14y ago
Unfortunately, this isn't even a little surprising. Disappointing, but not surprising at all.
w1ntermute 14y ago
Racism is still widely prevalent in America. The only thing that has changed is that instead of thinking it's OK to be racist, Americans now think that they're not racist. All the while actually continuing to be racist.
- vowelless 14y ago
  That is a bold statement. Having lived in many different locations (India, middle east, europe, canada and the US) as a brown guy, the only place I experienced less racism than the US was Canada.
  - bmelton 14y ago
    Isn't that basically what he just said?
    - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
      Not really. w1ntermute said "racism is still widely prevalent in America" which to me means "racism commonly occurs in America". But vowelless said "the only place I experienced less racism than the US was Canada" which to me means "of all the places I've been, America is the second least racist place... second only to Canada". I'm pretty sure the two said very different things... possibly even totally opposite things.
      - bmelton 14y ago
        Yep. I completely got it backwards. Thanks for the correction.
- ry0ohki 14y ago
  I think it's more of a stereotype then racism. In the DC sniper saga, everyone assumed it was a white male. Basically stereotypes: Spree shooter/sniper = white male, Bomber = arab male, Drive-by = african american male, Poisoning = kgb? None of these are true all of the time, but my point is they are stereotypes. If it were purely racism, people would jump to the conclusion of non-whites for spree shootings and snipings.
  - mnazim 14y ago
    Was poisoning = KGB a joke or is it actually stereotype? (a non american here)
    - ry0ohki 14y ago
      Kind of a joke, but certainly during the cold war that's probably what we would have suspected. We haven't had any assassinations in a long time, but I think people would assume a national enemy if we did.
      - w1ntermute 14y ago
        IIRC, It's pretty common for the Israelis to use poisoning for assassination these days, but you can't say anything negative about the Israelis lest you get Godwin'd.
        jlgreco 14y ago
        That may be true, though to be fair KGB poisoning incidents have probably gotten more news (particularly the Alexander Litvinenko polonium poisoning.) Stereotypes are all about perception, so the incidents that get the news shape the stereotypes.
djanogo 14y ago
It's unfortunate, but has to happen. The statistical likelihood of him being suspect were greater than others at that instance. The cops did what is expected of them, just like a software developer would perform a check for most likely condition first before the flow moves forwards. I don't see anything wrong, my skin color is similar to him and I wouldn't mind them checking me out first, I would gladly cooperate so that they can move on and find the real bad guy.
- vowelless 14y ago
  These are my feelings as well. And it does feel the Saudi national was completely co-operating with the cops. It's the right thing to do.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  Repeat after me: skin color is not probable cause. Setting aside all ethical issues, using ethnicity alone to determine probable cause is a violation of the law. If you would like to see it be acceptable to use skin color as the sole determinant for probable cause, that's fine. Just change the law. But until then, it is not allowed.
  - djanogo 14y ago
    no need to repeat 'politically correct' statements, skin color, just like sex and age, are part of vectors that you would have to mathematically use to narrow down suspects.
    - vowelless 14y ago
      Plus there is a high probability that he had a thick saudi accent (based on the accent of his roommate). A saudi descent american with a bostonian accent probably would not have been an immediate suspect.
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      > no need to repeat 'politically correct' statements It's not a "'politically correct' statement", it's part of the law. If you think that it's OK to search someone's apartment based on their ethnicity alone, I can only assume that you have no respect for the rule of law. And from TFA, I could not see any other distinguishing factors that were used to determine probable cause to search this guy's apartment, instead of any of the other people at the scene. The only factor was his ethnicity.
curtis 14y ago
It's probably worth remembering Richard Jewell and the Centennial Olympic Park bombing at the 1996 Atlanta Olympics: According to Wikipedia: > Despite never being charged, he underwent a "trial by media" with great toll on his personal and professional life. Eventually he was completely exonerated; Eric Robert Rudolph was later found to have been the bomber. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Jewell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Jewell
tptacek 14y ago
If we voted every story about every injustice in the news to the top of the site, we'd have /r/politics, not Hacker News. Not every important story belongs on this site; in fact, a lot of important stories need to be kept off the site, because they generate discussions that end up damaging the community. So, like most political stories on HN, I flagged this one, and you should too.
- mnazim 14y ago
  Individual voters decide what belongs at the top. If it has enough votes, it belongs. HNer's should stop complaining about what belongs or does not belong on top because it would not change anything.
  - youngerdryas 14y ago
    Or if it has enough flags it goes to the dustbin.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    I understand that Paul Graham doesn't want people commenting about whether stories are germane or not, probably to avoid exactly the repetitive discussion we're having now, but I disagree with him and think it can't hurt to remind people: The site has guidelines. The belief you have about the importance of votes is simply not true. Votes are one of the mechanism by which stories are selected for the sites, but not the only one.
    - WayneDB 14y ago
      Why should anyone listen to you when you're clearly not following the guidelines either though? From the guidelines: Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did.
      - 14y ago
mnazim 14y ago
It's not racism, it's not xenophobia, it's not Islamophobia. It's just bogeymen. All governments invent different bogeymen at different time to keep masses under control and push them towards seeing, hearing, and feeling what they want. It's nothing new, it has been happening from the very start of organized governance. (Okay let's scan the crowd... Found 7 _______ looking men/women. Hmmm... eeny, meeny, miny, moe. There you go get that ____ fella with ______ looking face.) (EDIT: Improved grammer)
dylanrw 14y ago
As the world gets smaller the likelihood of any profiling being accurate diminishes. I for one would like to see them practice more intellectually honest investigative techniques. For example, when there is a roadside attack in a prominently arab region, do you round up all of the arabs? No, you survey the scene, find the bomb, look for trigger points, etc. The fact that we jump to profiling I think is an action that not only taints the nation's perceived objectivity, but detracts from a proper investigation...

74 points by sasvari 14y ago

Unfortunately, this isn't even a little surprising. Disappointing, but not surprising at all.

Racism is still widely prevalent in America. The only thing that has changed is that instead of thinking it's OK to be racist, Americans now think that they're not racist. All the while actually continuing to be racist.

vowelless 14y ago
That is a bold statement. Having lived in many different locations (India, middle east, europe, canada and the US) as a brown guy, the only place I experienced less racism than the US was Canada.
- bmelton 14y ago
  Isn't that basically what he just said?
  - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
    Not really. w1ntermute said "racism is still widely prevalent in America" which to me means "racism commonly occurs in America". But vowelless said "the only place I experienced less racism than the US was Canada" which to me means "of all the places I've been, America is the second least racist place... second only to Canada". I'm pretty sure the two said very different things... possibly even totally opposite things.
    - bmelton 14y ago
      Yep. I completely got it backwards. Thanks for the correction.
ry0ohki 14y ago
I think it's more of a stereotype then racism. In the DC sniper saga, everyone assumed it was a white male. Basically stereotypes: Spree shooter/sniper = white male, Bomber = arab male, Drive-by = african american male, Poisoning = kgb? None of these are true all of the time, but my point is they are stereotypes. If it were purely racism, people would jump to the conclusion of non-whites for spree shootings and snipings.
- mnazim 14y ago
  Was poisoning = KGB a joke or is it actually stereotype? (a non american here)
  - ry0ohki 14y ago
    Kind of a joke, but certainly during the cold war that's probably what we would have suspected. We haven't had any assassinations in a long time, but I think people would assume a national enemy if we did.
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      IIRC, It's pretty common for the Israelis to use poisoning for assassination these days, but you can't say anything negative about the Israelis lest you get Godwin'd.
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        That may be true, though to be fair KGB poisoning incidents have probably gotten more news (particularly the Alexander Litvinenko polonium poisoning.) Stereotypes are all about perception, so the incidents that get the news shape the stereotypes.

djanogo 14y ago

It's unfortunate, but has to happen. The statistical likelihood of him being suspect were greater than others at that instance. The cops did what is expected of them, just like a software developer would perform a check for most likely condition first before the flow moves forwards. I don't see anything wrong, my skin color is similar to him and I wouldn't mind them checking me out first, I would gladly cooperate so that they can move on and find the real bad guy.

vowelless 14y ago
These are my feelings as well. And it does feel the Saudi national was completely co-operating with the cops. It's the right thing to do.
w1ntermute 14y ago
Repeat after me: skin color is not probable cause. Setting aside all ethical issues, using ethnicity alone to determine probable cause is a violation of the law. If you would like to see it be acceptable to use skin color as the sole determinant for probable cause, that's fine. Just change the law. But until then, it is not allowed.
- djanogo 14y ago
  no need to repeat 'politically correct' statements, skin color, just like sex and age, are part of vectors that you would have to mathematically use to narrow down suspects.
  - vowelless 14y ago
    Plus there is a high probability that he had a thick saudi accent (based on the accent of his roommate). A saudi descent american with a bostonian accent probably would not have been an immediate suspect.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    > no need to repeat 'politically correct' statements It's not a "'politically correct' statement", it's part of the law. If you think that it's OK to search someone's apartment based on their ethnicity alone, I can only assume that you have no respect for the rule of law. And from TFA, I could not see any other distinguishing factors that were used to determine probable cause to search this guy's apartment, instead of any of the other people at the scene. The only factor was his ethnicity.

curtis 14y ago

It's probably worth remembering Richard Jewell and the Centennial Olympic Park bombing at the 1996 Atlanta Olympics: According to Wikipedia: > Despite never being charged, he underwent a "trial by media" with great toll on his personal and professional life. Eventually he was completely exonerated; Eric Robert Rudolph was later found to have been the bomber. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Jewell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Jewell

tptacek 14y ago

If we voted every story about every injustice in the news to the top of the site, we'd have /r/politics, not Hacker News. Not every important story belongs on this site; in fact, a lot of important stories need to be kept off the site, because they generate discussions that end up damaging the community. So, like most political stories on HN, I flagged this one, and you should too.

mnazim 14y ago
Individual voters decide what belongs at the top. If it has enough votes, it belongs. HNer's should stop complaining about what belongs or does not belong on top because it would not change anything.
- youngerdryas 14y ago
  Or if it has enough flags it goes to the dustbin.
- tptacek 14y ago
  I understand that Paul Graham doesn't want people commenting about whether stories are germane or not, probably to avoid exactly the repetitive discussion we're having now, but I disagree with him and think it can't hurt to remind people: The site has guidelines. The belief you have about the importance of votes is simply not true. Votes are one of the mechanism by which stories are selected for the sites, but not the only one.
  - WayneDB 14y ago
    Why should anyone listen to you when you're clearly not following the guidelines either though? From the guidelines: Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did.
    - 14y ago

mnazim 14y ago

It's not racism, it's not xenophobia, it's not Islamophobia. It's just bogeymen. All governments invent different bogeymen at different time to keep masses under control and push them towards seeing, hearing, and feeling what they want. It's nothing new, it has been happening from the very start of organized governance. (Okay let's scan the crowd... Found 7 _______ looking men/women. Hmmm... eeny, meeny, miny, moe. There you go get that ____ fella with ______ looking face.) (EDIT: Improved grammer)

dylanrw 14y ago

As the world gets smaller the likelihood of any profiling being accurate diminishes. I for one would like to see them practice more intellectually honest investigative techniques. For example, when there is a roadside attack in a prominently arab region, do you round up all of the arabs? No, you survey the scene, find the bomb, look for trigger points, etc. The fact that we jump to profiling I think is an action that not only taints the nation's perceived objectivity, but detracts from a proper investigation...