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"How much money do you owe the rest of us for helping create your riches" A good chunk. What business can you create that doesn't use the roads, the internet,

"How much money do you owe the rest of us for helping create your riches" A good chunk. What business can you create that doesn't use the roads, the internet, or the public school educated in this country? Look back into the 20th century at the top marginal bracket, realize that all the infrastructure that we use today was built on the backs of people paying significantly higher taxes than our selfish generation pays today. And what corner store owner leaves 20 million to their grand kids? I don't think you know much about local small businesses. My uncle is a mechanic, and worked for several years at a small gas station, and then when the owner retired he bought the business. The land was still rented from the gas supplier, and after about 30 years of that he just bought his own plot down the road for $2 million. He now has a half dozen guys working for him and business is great, but to get that $2 million he had to drain out his IRA and all of his retirement to sink into the business. At the end of 40-50 years of owning this business and working 6 days a week, he will probably have a net worth of 4-5 million dollars. And that is a business with 6 guys charging $50 an hour for car repairs 6 days a week, I don't think selling bubble gum and newspapers yields 20 million bucks.

DanielBMarkham 18y ago
You realize, of course, that the railroads and internet were built by people who made money doing so, not by taxes, right? Roads used to be maintained privately as well. Substitute "chain of local stores" for local store. Thanks for sharing your story. Actually, if I understand correctly, although the tax brackets were high, nobody actually paid that much. It was all a shell game. Politicians set the rate high for political purposes, and then left in loopholes so that the rich got away without paying much. In fact, I'm thinking they actually paid much less in those days than they do now. (sorry, no link)
- krschultz 18y ago
  WHAT? Are you kidding me? Go read a book on the railroads - that is a prime example of exactly what I'm talking about. Nothing Like it In The World by Stephan Ambrose is a quick read and covers my point. The railroads were granted the land tracts by the government - they didn't buy it. That was in the 19th century, what about the 20th century resurection of Conrail in the northeast? We wouldn't have railroads around NYC at all if it wasn't for a government bailout. The internet was invented by the federal government. It was largely expanded by universities - funded by state governments. The toll roads utterly failed in this country, thats why they were nationalized. The interstate highway system was entirely federally funded. Who built the bridges that I commute over everyday to work? Not private investors, in fact even if they were profitable in their own right and people wanted to build them - they never could because land had to be TAKEN from people against their will in order to build something for the common good. NYC would not be what it is today without the tunnels and bridges - but when neighbor hoods were getting cleared for the port authority building, do you think people like you thought it was a good idea?
  - DanielBMarkham 18y ago
    Okay, let's take this one at a time. Railroads: founded by a partnership between industry and government. Government's effects, aside from land grants, were dubious at best http://www.jstor.org/pss/3115585 http://www.jstor.org/pss/3115585 Yes, there were bailouts. But that hardly makes modern railroads a function of government intervention. Aside from eminent domain, railroads have been very capable of operating and turning a profit on their own, at least when it comes to freight. Even then, it was deregulation of the industry that brought Conrail back to life (1980 Staggers Act) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_Central#Bankruptcy_and_Conrail_merger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_Central#Bankruptcy_and_Con... Even now, passenger rail is a money-sink, one that government continues to find worthwhile but the market does not. The internet was "invented" by DARPA as a means to make research more effective. Unless you were at a federally-sponsored university, you didn't have internet access. But the rollout of the internet was very much a commercial thing. Delphi, America Online, UUNet, etc were all commercial players and they were the ones who brought internet to the masses. University participation was great in the early 80s when a small percentage of the population used it, but the "real" internet as we know it today runs on Cisco routers over Verizon cable to a local ISP owned by Sixpack Bob. It has grown and done just fine _without_ government help. Lastly, toll roads are making a come-back, if you haven't noticed. On a recent trip to Florida we saw them everywhere. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/community/news/apopka/orl-lid2508feb25,0,1614464.story http://www.orlandosentinel.com/community/news/apopka/orl-lid... Privatization is a current trend, with some commentators worry about the effects on low income drivers http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_19/b4033001.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_top+story http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_19/b4033001.... History is a great thing. You can take some event, like the building of the trans-continental railroad, and focus just on government involvement. Then you can look down another layer and see lots of private sector involvement. Push down yet another layer and you'll find legislators pandering to businesses. Push down yet another and you'll find some businesses trying to build something to make a buck. If you're not seeing the entire depth, it can appear to be anything from government saving the day to free market euphoria. In fact, it's a complex mix of interaction that makes things work. Part of that reason is because of the driving factors: politicians are always looking to make things more complicated and businesses are always looking to create something to make more money.

DanielBMarkham 18y ago

You realize, of course, that the railroads and internet were built by people who made money doing so, not by taxes, right? Roads used to be maintained privately as well. Substitute "chain of local stores" for local store. Thanks for sharing your story. Actually, if I understand correctly, although the tax brackets were high, nobody actually paid that much. It was all a shell game. Politicians set the rate high for political purposes, and then left in loopholes so that the rich got away without paying much. In fact, I'm thinking they actually paid much less in those days than they do now. (sorry, no link)

krschultz 18y ago
WHAT? Are you kidding me? Go read a book on the railroads - that is a prime example of exactly what I'm talking about. Nothing Like it In The World by Stephan Ambrose is a quick read and covers my point. The railroads were granted the land tracts by the government - they didn't buy it. That was in the 19th century, what about the 20th century resurection of Conrail in the northeast? We wouldn't have railroads around NYC at all if it wasn't for a government bailout. The internet was invented by the federal government. It was largely expanded by universities - funded by state governments. The toll roads utterly failed in this country, thats why they were nationalized. The interstate highway system was entirely federally funded. Who built the bridges that I commute over everyday to work? Not private investors, in fact even if they were profitable in their own right and people wanted to build them - they never could because land had to be TAKEN from people against their will in order to build something for the common good. NYC would not be what it is today without the tunnels and bridges - but when neighbor hoods were getting cleared for the port authority building, do you think people like you thought it was a good idea?
- DanielBMarkham 18y ago
  Okay, let's take this one at a time. Railroads: founded by a partnership between industry and government. Government's effects, aside from land grants, were dubious at best http://www.jstor.org/pss/3115585 http://www.jstor.org/pss/3115585 Yes, there were bailouts. But that hardly makes modern railroads a function of government intervention. Aside from eminent domain, railroads have been very capable of operating and turning a profit on their own, at least when it comes to freight. Even then, it was deregulation of the industry that brought Conrail back to life (1980 Staggers Act) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_Central#Bankruptcy_and_Conrail_merger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_Central#Bankruptcy_and_Con... Even now, passenger rail is a money-sink, one that government continues to find worthwhile but the market does not. The internet was "invented" by DARPA as a means to make research more effective. Unless you were at a federally-sponsored university, you didn't have internet access. But the rollout of the internet was very much a commercial thing. Delphi, America Online, UUNet, etc were all commercial players and they were the ones who brought internet to the masses. University participation was great in the early 80s when a small percentage of the population used it, but the "real" internet as we know it today runs on Cisco routers over Verizon cable to a local ISP owned by Sixpack Bob. It has grown and done just fine _without_ government help. Lastly, toll roads are making a come-back, if you haven't noticed. On a recent trip to Florida we saw them everywhere. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/community/news/apopka/orl-lid2508feb25,0,1614464.story http://www.orlandosentinel.com/community/news/apopka/orl-lid... Privatization is a current trend, with some commentators worry about the effects on low income drivers http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_19/b4033001.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_top+story http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_19/b4033001.... History is a great thing. You can take some event, like the building of the trans-continental railroad, and focus just on government involvement. Then you can look down another layer and see lots of private sector involvement. Push down yet another layer and you'll find legislators pandering to businesses. Push down yet another and you'll find some businesses trying to build something to make a buck. If you're not seeing the entire depth, it can appear to be anything from government saving the day to free market euphoria. In fact, it's a complex mix of interaction that makes things work. Part of that reason is because of the driving factors: politicians are always looking to make things more complicated and businesses are always looking to create something to make more money.