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John Allen Paulos has been pushing using toll data for speeding citations for decades, most recently here: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/WhosCounting/t/story

by RyJones 14y ago

John Allen Paulos has been pushing using toll data for speeding citations for decades, most recently here: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/WhosCounting/t/story?id=97915&page=1&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/WhosCounting/t/story?id=979...

AnthonyMouse 14y ago
There are a number of problems with doing things like this. The first is that significant speed differentials are extremely dangerous. Uncalibrated speedometers are very common and very inaccurate. Anything that causes guaranteed enforcement is going to reduce safety because people will start religiously following their speedometer instead of the normal flow of traffic, so now you have people driving all different speeds than one another based on how badly and in which direction their speedometer is miscalibrated. On top of that you have a situation where anyone who has made a stop for coffee or gas is exempt from the timer because of the stop, so you put a number of people driving 15MPH over the limit (because they stopped and aren't subject to the timer) on the same road as people driving 15MPH under the limit (because they haven't stopped and their speedometer is inaccurate) and you're going to see more collisions. Then there is the pragmatic problem. Speeding tickets are big money because the law is enforced sporadically under unpredictable conditions. To generate revenue, enforcement has to be rare enough that it doesn't induce compliance. And the proposed scheme is entirely deterministic. Everyone who doesn't make a stop will discontinue their speeding between toll booths -- which is ostensibly the intended result, except that it means the scheme will generate no money and will deprive the government of existing ticket revenue that would have been generated on that stretch of road. Meanwhile it reduces the need for police presence, which means you'll have to fight the law enforcement unions to boot. It's not at all surprising that there has been little interest in implementing it.
- jevinskie 14y ago
  Although I'm sure it will be implemented sooner rather than later for the purpose of surveillance and intelligence.
- fyi80 14y ago
  Number of times I have stopped for gas on a 30-mile stretch of local toll road: 0. Why would someone stop, just to get an excuse to speed later, at the same average? The few people drag-racing, maybe. Not the vast majority who want to to arrive at destination ASASP. You are conjuring up a ridiculous hypothetical and claiming it is the common case.
  - AnthonyMouse 14y ago
    >Why would someone stop, just to get an excuse to speed later, at the same average? You do understand that there are service plazas on toll roads. People stop for gas because they need gas, not because they want to speed. But once someone has stopped, or intends to stop before the toll booth, they're no longer subject to the timer and end up creating a dangerous speed differential against the drivers who are.
    - eru 14y ago
      If you stopped, nobody forces you to speed up. (And they could still put some police people on the beat, just to check up on the stoppers.)
      - AnthonyMouse 14y ago
        >If you stopped, nobody forces you to speed up. Is that supposed to be an argument that people won't do it? >And they could still put some police people on the beat, just to check up on the stoppers. Or they could just do that to begin with and forget about the toll booths, no?
    - spc476 14y ago
      As someone who lives in South Florida (east coast, Jupiter southward), I can state that the only toll roads in the area that also have service plazas are the Florida Turnpike (north/south and can be used for commuting) and I-75 west of US-27 (runs east/west across the state, and at the point it becomes a toll road, you are basically heading away from the population center towards the middle of the state; also, practically no one lives west of US-27 until you get to the west coast of Florida). The other toll roads (Sawgrass Expressway, 924, Dolphin Expressway, parts of I-95 in Miami, Don Shula Expressway and I think 826 (it's been awhile since I driven that one)) are all very short (longest is the Sawgrass Expressway, at 20 miles) and all in a very dense urban setting and absolutely no service plazas. Also, all the toll roads in South Florida use the same electronic system (EZ-Pass); it's also usable up through Orlando (from personal experience). With such a system, there's no need to even slow down to pay the toll (and there are no more toll booths in Miami; if you have no EZ-Pass system, a photo of your license place is taken, and a bill (not a ticket) is mailed to the license holder). Edit: There are also three service plazas along the Florida Turnpike in South Florida, one in Dade County (Miami), one in Broward County (just north of Ft. Lauderdale) and one in West Palm Beach (towards the north end of the county), each separated by approximately 30 miles. Depending on where the cop in question lived and worked, he might have never even passed a service plaza (and besides, the gas there is more expensive).
- timthorn 14y ago
  Average speed cameras are common in the UK. The flow of traffic adjusts so that the body of traffic is at the limit - we don't keep our eyes on the speedo, as enforcement only kicks in at limit+x mph, and a short duration deviation from speed isn't a problem. Most people have cruise control, and they won't need to check the speedo once set. I've no empirical evidence, but driving on main roads with average speed cameras feels safer.
- pc86 14y ago
  Do you have any citations for your claim that "people driving 15MPH under the limit (because ... their speedometer is inaccurate)" is "very common?"
  - AnthonyMouse 14y ago
    I like how you piece together two different sentences to change the meaning. Speedometer inaccuracy is very common, e.g. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/speedometer-scandal http://www.caranddriver.com/features/speedometer-scandal Being off by 15MPH is near the edge of the plausible range. What you get when you start with a speedometer that was off by several percent from the factory and then you throw in bald tires, or armchair mechanics who put low profile tires on stock wheels, or replace the differential with one that has a different gear ratio, or damage from a previous collision, etc.

by RyJones 14y ago

AnthonyMouse 14y ago

There are a number of problems with doing things like this. The first is that significant speed differentials are extremely dangerous. Uncalibrated speedometers are very common and very inaccurate. Anything that causes guaranteed enforcement is going to reduce safety because people will start religiously following their speedometer instead of the normal flow of traffic, so now you have people driving all different speeds than one another based on how badly and in which direction their speedometer is miscalibrated. On top of that you have a situation where anyone who has made a stop for coffee or gas is exempt from the timer because of the stop, so you put a number of people driving 15MPH over the limit (because they stopped and aren't subject to the timer) on the same road as people driving 15MPH under the limit (because they haven't stopped and their speedometer is inaccurate) and you're going to see more collisions. Then there is the pragmatic problem. Speeding tickets are big money because the law is enforced sporadically under unpredictable conditions. To generate revenue, enforcement has to be rare enough that it doesn't induce compliance. And the proposed scheme is entirely deterministic. Everyone who doesn't make a stop will discontinue their speeding between toll booths -- which is ostensibly the intended result, except that it means the scheme will generate no money and will deprive the government of existing ticket revenue that would have been generated on that stretch of road. Meanwhile it reduces the need for police presence, which means you'll have to fight the law enforcement unions to boot. It's not at all surprising that there has been little interest in implementing it.

jevinskie 14y ago
Although I'm sure it will be implemented sooner rather than later for the purpose of surveillance and intelligence.
fyi80 14y ago
Number of times I have stopped for gas on a 30-mile stretch of local toll road: 0. Why would someone stop, just to get an excuse to speed later, at the same average? The few people drag-racing, maybe. Not the vast majority who want to to arrive at destination ASASP. You are conjuring up a ridiculous hypothetical and claiming it is the common case.
- AnthonyMouse 14y ago
  >Why would someone stop, just to get an excuse to speed later, at the same average? You do understand that there are service plazas on toll roads. People stop for gas because they need gas, not because they want to speed. But once someone has stopped, or intends to stop before the toll booth, they're no longer subject to the timer and end up creating a dangerous speed differential against the drivers who are.
  - eru 14y ago
    If you stopped, nobody forces you to speed up. (And they could still put some police people on the beat, just to check up on the stoppers.)
    - AnthonyMouse 14y ago
      >If you stopped, nobody forces you to speed up. Is that supposed to be an argument that people won't do it? >And they could still put some police people on the beat, just to check up on the stoppers. Or they could just do that to begin with and forget about the toll booths, no?
  - spc476 14y ago
    As someone who lives in South Florida (east coast, Jupiter southward), I can state that the only toll roads in the area that also have service plazas are the Florida Turnpike (north/south and can be used for commuting) and I-75 west of US-27 (runs east/west across the state, and at the point it becomes a toll road, you are basically heading away from the population center towards the middle of the state; also, practically no one lives west of US-27 until you get to the west coast of Florida). The other toll roads (Sawgrass Expressway, 924, Dolphin Expressway, parts of I-95 in Miami, Don Shula Expressway and I think 826 (it's been awhile since I driven that one)) are all very short (longest is the Sawgrass Expressway, at 20 miles) and all in a very dense urban setting and absolutely no service plazas. Also, all the toll roads in South Florida use the same electronic system (EZ-Pass); it's also usable up through Orlando (from personal experience). With such a system, there's no need to even slow down to pay the toll (and there are no more toll booths in Miami; if you have no EZ-Pass system, a photo of your license place is taken, and a bill (not a ticket) is mailed to the license holder). Edit: There are also three service plazas along the Florida Turnpike in South Florida, one in Dade County (Miami), one in Broward County (just north of Ft. Lauderdale) and one in West Palm Beach (towards the north end of the county), each separated by approximately 30 miles. Depending on where the cop in question lived and worked, he might have never even passed a service plaza (and besides, the gas there is more expensive).
timthorn 14y ago
Average speed cameras are common in the UK. The flow of traffic adjusts so that the body of traffic is at the limit - we don't keep our eyes on the speedo, as enforcement only kicks in at limit+x mph, and a short duration deviation from speed isn't a problem. Most people have cruise control, and they won't need to check the speedo once set. I've no empirical evidence, but driving on main roads with average speed cameras feels safer.
pc86 14y ago
Do you have any citations for your claim that "people driving 15MPH under the limit (because ... their speedometer is inaccurate)" is "very common?"
- AnthonyMouse 14y ago
  I like how you piece together two different sentences to change the meaning. Speedometer inaccuracy is very common, e.g. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/speedometer-scandal http://www.caranddriver.com/features/speedometer-scandal Being off by 15MPH is near the edge of the plausible range. What you get when you start with a speedometer that was off by several percent from the factory and then you throw in bald tires, or armchair mechanics who put low profile tires on stock wheels, or replace the differential with one that has a different gear ratio, or damage from a previous collision, etc.