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I am one of those recent arrivals. I do work in software, but in a semi-academic environment and don't have the slightest interest in owning or working for a st

by frossie 18y ago

I am one of those recent arrivals. I do work in software, but in a semi-academic environment and don't have the slightest interest in owning or working for a start-up. I came here for the signal to noise, so I guess I am exactly the newcomer that vexes the author (though not having commented until today, I can safely say I have not stoked any flamewars). For the record I don't have a problem with user identity - after all I post under my real first name which is unusual enough to google me very quickly. I certainly do object to the suggestion of user identity being enforced through membership of a social network. Much as I love Hacker News, I don't love it enough to jettison my misgivings on social networking. It would be a real shame to kill interesting stories because of the comments they would attract. Perhaps allow those stories to be posted, but lock them down for comments?

e1ven 18y ago
Glad to have you, Frossie! I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression- I'm glad to see the site expand, and I think it's great that you're coming ;) I just want to preserve exactly that signal to noise ratio that makes the site attractive to both of us - The comments in particular suffer when people don't try to maintain a good front. You're absolutely right that Social Networking may not be the best way to do that- My contention is that digital identities are inexpensive; They don't require substantial investment to maintain, so it's easy to turn abusive. For example, say for whatever reason, I chose to be acerbic and taunting to people on the forum, rather than engaging the larger community. It would be trivial for me to create a new username, do things which are destructive to the idea of a community of interest.. It's not just outright trolling, but I might reply to comments sarcastically, and attack people when they "Ask HN" on something I think is somewhat obvious. The harm to myself would be minuscule- In this example, I've substantially diminish the enjoyment of other people, and might even do so for months or years under the same username.. But when I'm ready to move on with my life, I discard the username I created for HN, and no one is the wiser. I haven't left any trace that people might find when googling my name. Essentially, I've made myself dispensable. If I were applying for the YC program, I'd not want to do that, for fear that PG et all would reject my application, but if I'm visiting, and this account is in no way linked to me, what incentive do I have, other than common decency? Sadly, I think that common decency does not get us very far. You might want to take a look at the article I linked at the bottom of my post, on creating online communities. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/identitymatters http://www.alistapart.com/articles/identitymatters I think that it does a very decent job at giving a general overview, but it doesn't yet account for way inexpensive digital identities allow people to behave in an uncivil manner. Again, welcome to the site, and I hope I haven't scared you away ;)
- Xichekolas 18y ago
  "what incentive do I have, other than common decency?" It's a shame that 'common decency' has to be enforced in some way. I post under a screen name (obviously), and while my real name is in my profile now, even before it was I never felt the urge to push someone else's buttons just for the fun of it. I realize I'm being a bit optimistic when I say this, but I think people rise to the standard to which they are held. We have a bit of a reputation here at HN for being stodgy and humorless. While I don't think that is true, I'm fine with that reputation if it means newcomers think twice before posting their witty one liners and meme-of-the-week. Eventually the culture initiates the newcomers and they don't have to think twice... they will know what the community values and what it does not, and they will contribute accordingly. In short, I don't think we need any technical solution to solve what someone's innate desire to be valuable will accomplish for us. What we do need is for existing members to set the tone, and so far they have done so admirably.
  - e1ven 18y ago
    "I think people rise to the standard to which they are held." Perhaps you're right- An extension of the Broken Windows theory, if you will. But so far it might seem that evidence is against you. Look back, not just at HN, but Reddit, Digg, Kuro5hin, and even Slashdot have people who say how nice it was before the trolls arrived, before the site became as popular. I certainly don't want to come across as a wistful elderly man looking back with nostalgia at his youth- I think that there's more to it than hazy memories of the past. Communities evolve and change- I love Reddit, and my Alien Bobblehead is amoung my prized possessions.. But at the same time, I know that the level of discourse has fallen sharply over the few years. Pun threads are common, and people attack one another frequently. I once read someone mention the "4chanization" of reddit, and unfortunately, I worry that that is the natural state of all communities, if they aren't tended. The level of discourse on HN, while still exemplary has been declining of late, and I've seen more personal attacks and discussions of identity politics. I wish I had your optimism, Andrew, and I hope you're right.
    - Xichekolas 18y ago
jacoblyles 18y ago
The trade-off of losing some percentage of registered users and keeping quality high might well be worth it. If the site's user base is growing by an order of magnitude every year, it probably wouldn't hurt to lose users. At least, it's worth it if the alternative is becoming the next reddit.

by frossie 18y ago

e1ven 18y ago

Glad to have you, Frossie! I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression- I'm glad to see the site expand, and I think it's great that you're coming ;) I just want to preserve exactly that signal to noise ratio that makes the site attractive to both of us - The comments in particular suffer when people don't try to maintain a good front. You're absolutely right that Social Networking may not be the best way to do that- My contention is that digital identities are inexpensive; They don't require substantial investment to maintain, so it's easy to turn abusive. For example, say for whatever reason, I chose to be acerbic and taunting to people on the forum, rather than engaging the larger community. It would be trivial for me to create a new username, do things which are destructive to the idea of a community of interest.. It's not just outright trolling, but I might reply to comments sarcastically, and attack people when they "Ask HN" on something I think is somewhat obvious. The harm to myself would be minuscule- In this example, I've substantially diminish the enjoyment of other people, and might even do so for months or years under the same username.. But when I'm ready to move on with my life, I discard the username I created for HN, and no one is the wiser. I haven't left any trace that people might find when googling my name. Essentially, I've made myself dispensable. If I were applying for the YC program, I'd not want to do that, for fear that PG et all would reject my application, but if I'm visiting, and this account is in no way linked to me, what incentive do I have, other than common decency? Sadly, I think that common decency does not get us very far. You might want to take a look at the article I linked at the bottom of my post, on creating online communities. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/identitymatters http://www.alistapart.com/articles/identitymatters I think that it does a very decent job at giving a general overview, but it doesn't yet account for way inexpensive digital identities allow people to behave in an uncivil manner. Again, welcome to the site, and I hope I haven't scared you away ;)

Xichekolas 18y ago
"what incentive do I have, other than common decency?" It's a shame that 'common decency' has to be enforced in some way. I post under a screen name (obviously), and while my real name is in my profile now, even before it was I never felt the urge to push someone else's buttons just for the fun of it. I realize I'm being a bit optimistic when I say this, but I think people rise to the standard to which they are held. We have a bit of a reputation here at HN for being stodgy and humorless. While I don't think that is true, I'm fine with that reputation if it means newcomers think twice before posting their witty one liners and meme-of-the-week. Eventually the culture initiates the newcomers and they don't have to think twice... they will know what the community values and what it does not, and they will contribute accordingly. In short, I don't think we need any technical solution to solve what someone's innate desire to be valuable will accomplish for us. What we do need is for existing members to set the tone, and so far they have done so admirably.
- e1ven 18y ago
  "I think people rise to the standard to which they are held." Perhaps you're right- An extension of the Broken Windows theory, if you will. But so far it might seem that evidence is against you. Look back, not just at HN, but Reddit, Digg, Kuro5hin, and even Slashdot have people who say how nice it was before the trolls arrived, before the site became as popular. I certainly don't want to come across as a wistful elderly man looking back with nostalgia at his youth- I think that there's more to it than hazy memories of the past. Communities evolve and change- I love Reddit, and my Alien Bobblehead is amoung my prized possessions.. But at the same time, I know that the level of discourse has fallen sharply over the few years. Pun threads are common, and people attack one another frequently. I once read someone mention the "4chanization" of reddit, and unfortunately, I worry that that is the natural state of all communities, if they aren't tended. The level of discourse on HN, while still exemplary has been declining of late, and I've seen more personal attacks and discussions of identity politics. I wish I had your optimism, Andrew, and I hope you're right.
  - Xichekolas 18y ago

jacoblyles 18y ago

The trade-off of losing some percentage of registered users and keeping quality high might well be worth it. If the site's user base is growing by an order of magnitude every year, it probably wouldn't hurt to lose users. At least, it's worth it if the alternative is becoming the next reddit.