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The going rates in NYC/SF also have going rates for living expenses. A single person might not mind having a small apartment or sharing with someone - people w

The going rates in NYC/SF also have going rates for living expenses. A single person might not mind having a small apartment or sharing with someone - people with families or other priorities can't live like that. It doesn't have to be telecommute - mid-senior developers can get jobs making $70-$80k in many major areas around the US (Minneapolis, Raleigh, Atlanta, Nashville, are just some I know of off the top of my head). Junior devs with no experience would probably be hard pressed to start off much over $50-60k in those areas, although there may be exceptions. Consulting may be 'unstable' in that you'll have periods where you're not billing - at first that'll be because you have nothing else lined up. Later, it'll be by choice - you'll scheduled out breaks between engagements, and have a bit of a life in between. And you'll have charged enough, and budgeted your earnings enough such that it won't matter to your day to day living. I would suggest that if you do the consulting/contracting route, that you be willing to travel. I know people can't always sell a house and move, but most people can get a car or plane to visit clients on a regular basis - it helps a lot to solidify relationships. And I'm surprised at how many people who want to do independent consulting remotely focus way too much on the remote part and not enough on the independent and consulting parts, then wonder why they can't find clients. Keep your eyes and ears open for opportunities - they sometimes come up in places you wouldn't expect (both geographic and industry).

scarecrowbob 14y ago
I second your post here-- I am currently idled through the end of summer by choice (we're moving and then traveling), but it's not a big deal-- I live in the sticks, but I do drive into Austin, TX pretty frequently. There are indeed a lot of opportunities, but you do have to focus on business development as part of what you're doing; while I don't have a lot of specific offers on my plate for the fall, I'm not worried about finding fun, interesting development projects.
- nilkn 14y ago
  I'm in TX too (not Austin, but another big city). I'm curious how you're liking consulting here and how it's going. Do you find most of your clients in Austin or are they remote? And do you feel like you would be better off just getting a salaried full-time job with benefits given the going rates here for salaries vs. consulting? If you don't mind spilling the beans (I understand if not), how much are you generally able to make (and how much work does making it involve)? I ask because I'm seriously looking into transitioning into consulting over the next few years. I'm a little dissatisfied with the developer wages in Texas in comparison to the cost of living inside the city (Houston, probably similar to Austin). The wages are great in comparison to the suburbs or further out, but I don't want to commute 1.5-2 hours every day if I can help it.
  - sfont 14y ago
    I can't give you any insight into developer wages. But as far as commuting in the Houston area goes, I used to commute from Fort Bend County to Bush Airport (which really was an absurd commute) and it took me about an hour each way. So if you're trying to keep your commute under 45 minutes each way, you may have a wider area of acceptable areas to live in. Especially if you are thinking of companies inside the loop.
    - nilkn 14y ago
      I'll be making about $83k/year this coming June (haven't graduated yet...) working in the Greenway area in the loop. I have an apartment lined up which will actually be in walking distance, so life will be easy. But I'm the sort of person who tends to think too far forward in the future, and I don't want to be renting an apartment my whole life. To me, the sooner one owns a home (and by own I mean own, not a mortgage) the better, as that's one major step towards true financial independence, as it means no rent or mortgage payment at all. And short of striking it rich, the only way to outright own a home early on in life is to make a lot of money with a permanent residence in a very cheap area. At the same time, I really don't want to commute and don't feel comfortable spending more than double my salary on a house (I don't want to be "house poor"). In striving to satisfy all these desires simultaneously, I'm led to the consideration of consulting in the next few years. A few posters (patio11 and a few others I don't remember) here on HN have convinced me that, if done right, consulting can be a path to financial independence without the unpredictability of the startup "lottery". The idea, I hope, is that through partially remote consulting work one can make a wage which is disproportionately high compared to the cheap area in which one lives. It remains to be seen if any of this speculation is actually true.
      - sneak 14y ago
        > The idea, I hope, is that through partially remote consulting work one can make a wage which is disproportionately high compared to the cheap area in which one lives. It remains to be seen if any of this speculation is actually true. This is precisely what I've done with my life for the last five years. It works, on one condition: you must find, connect with, and sell the Right Kind Of Customers for it to work. If you're just a programmer (which, of course, Patrick famously recommends against identifying as), you are competing against every other "programmer" with your list of bullet-point skills, many in places a lot cheaper than even your "cheap area in which one lives"— e.g. eastern Europe, former Soviet states, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages The trick is to position, market, and brand yourself as a specialized, boutique consultancy that incorporates various highly-sought-after technical skills in a complete "special sauce" package for businesses to achieve business-ey goals. People LOVE good abstractions, and are willing to pay for them. Be a problem solver/revenue increaser, not a "programmer". If you try to compete on a specific, easily-defined technical skillset, you'll lose to vast hordes of internet-connected Romanians, Latvians, and Ukranians every time - they can maintain a very comfortable standard of living at prices way below what you could offer your services for.
pnathan 14y ago
> A single person might not mind having a small apartment or sharing with someone - people with families or other priorities can't live like that. Actually, people can. Immigrants are notorious for doing that in the US. If you're willing to rearrange your perceptions of what can be done... you could definitely have 3-5 people in a 800-900 sq. ft apartment. :-)
- mgkimsal 14y ago
  I thought that might be brought up when I was writing it, and you're right. Yes people can, but not everyone wants to, of course, and it's a pretty big sell to tell someone "pay $2500/month to live in this small apt to be close to company X" when there's far different options out there: bigger space, less pollution, better schools, cheaper food, perhaps closer to other relatives, etc. So yes, it can be done, but I think many companies are doing themselves a disservice by requiring people to be onsite and live nearby or commute long distances.
  - pnathan 14y ago
    > I think many companies are doing themselves a disservice by requiring people to be onsite and live nearby or commute long distances. Me too. But I believe that the cramped apartment is worth keeping open as an option.

scarecrowbob 14y ago

I second your post here-- I am currently idled through the end of summer by choice (we're moving and then traveling), but it's not a big deal-- I live in the sticks, but I do drive into Austin, TX pretty frequently. There are indeed a lot of opportunities, but you do have to focus on business development as part of what you're doing; while I don't have a lot of specific offers on my plate for the fall, I'm not worried about finding fun, interesting development projects.

nilkn 14y ago
I'm in TX too (not Austin, but another big city). I'm curious how you're liking consulting here and how it's going. Do you find most of your clients in Austin or are they remote? And do you feel like you would be better off just getting a salaried full-time job with benefits given the going rates here for salaries vs. consulting? If you don't mind spilling the beans (I understand if not), how much are you generally able to make (and how much work does making it involve)? I ask because I'm seriously looking into transitioning into consulting over the next few years. I'm a little dissatisfied with the developer wages in Texas in comparison to the cost of living inside the city (Houston, probably similar to Austin). The wages are great in comparison to the suburbs or further out, but I don't want to commute 1.5-2 hours every day if I can help it.
- sfont 14y ago
  I can't give you any insight into developer wages. But as far as commuting in the Houston area goes, I used to commute from Fort Bend County to Bush Airport (which really was an absurd commute) and it took me about an hour each way. So if you're trying to keep your commute under 45 minutes each way, you may have a wider area of acceptable areas to live in. Especially if you are thinking of companies inside the loop.
  - nilkn 14y ago
    I'll be making about $83k/year this coming June (haven't graduated yet...) working in the Greenway area in the loop. I have an apartment lined up which will actually be in walking distance, so life will be easy. But I'm the sort of person who tends to think too far forward in the future, and I don't want to be renting an apartment my whole life. To me, the sooner one owns a home (and by own I mean own, not a mortgage) the better, as that's one major step towards true financial independence, as it means no rent or mortgage payment at all. And short of striking it rich, the only way to outright own a home early on in life is to make a lot of money with a permanent residence in a very cheap area. At the same time, I really don't want to commute and don't feel comfortable spending more than double my salary on a house (I don't want to be "house poor"). In striving to satisfy all these desires simultaneously, I'm led to the consideration of consulting in the next few years. A few posters (patio11 and a few others I don't remember) here on HN have convinced me that, if done right, consulting can be a path to financial independence without the unpredictability of the startup "lottery". The idea, I hope, is that through partially remote consulting work one can make a wage which is disproportionately high compared to the cheap area in which one lives. It remains to be seen if any of this speculation is actually true.
    - sneak 14y ago
      > The idea, I hope, is that through partially remote consulting work one can make a wage which is disproportionately high compared to the cheap area in which one lives. It remains to be seen if any of this speculation is actually true. This is precisely what I've done with my life for the last five years. It works, on one condition: you must find, connect with, and sell the Right Kind Of Customers for it to work. If you're just a programmer (which, of course, Patrick famously recommends against identifying as), you are competing against every other "programmer" with your list of bullet-point skills, many in places a lot cheaper than even your "cheap area in which one lives"— e.g. eastern Europe, former Soviet states, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages The trick is to position, market, and brand yourself as a specialized, boutique consultancy that incorporates various highly-sought-after technical skills in a complete "special sauce" package for businesses to achieve business-ey goals. People LOVE good abstractions, and are willing to pay for them. Be a problem solver/revenue increaser, not a "programmer". If you try to compete on a specific, easily-defined technical skillset, you'll lose to vast hordes of internet-connected Romanians, Latvians, and Ukranians every time - they can maintain a very comfortable standard of living at prices way below what you could offer your services for.

pnathan 14y ago

> A single person might not mind having a small apartment or sharing with someone - people with families or other priorities can't live like that. Actually, people can. Immigrants are notorious for doing that in the US. If you're willing to rearrange your perceptions of what can be done... you could definitely have 3-5 people in a 800-900 sq. ft apartment. :-)

mgkimsal 14y ago
I thought that might be brought up when I was writing it, and you're right. Yes people can, but not everyone wants to, of course, and it's a pretty big sell to tell someone "pay $2500/month to live in this small apt to be close to company X" when there's far different options out there: bigger space, less pollution, better schools, cheaper food, perhaps closer to other relatives, etc. So yes, it can be done, but I think many companies are doing themselves a disservice by requiring people to be onsite and live nearby or commute long distances.
- pnathan 14y ago
  > I think many companies are doing themselves a disservice by requiring people to be onsite and live nearby or commute long distances. Me too. But I believe that the cramped apartment is worth keeping open as an option.