5 ms·

Here is an obvious analysis: The idea with terrorism against democracies is to scare the living daylight out of voters in a country. The politicians in those d

by berntb 14y ago

Here is an obvious analysis: The idea with terrorism against democracies is to scare the living daylight out of voters in a country. The politicians in those democracies want to win the next election do everything to stop the terror. Afaik, most every democracy that had a serious terrorist problem over years threw out the law book -- UK, Germany, Israel, Spain, USA, etc. It is a reaction built into democracy, if you have a better way of organizing society that is well tested, please tell me. (That "well tested" is critical; failure modes for testing systems often kills millions of people.)

fakeer 14y ago
No, I really don't know any better way but this way that you are supposedly telling others to accept as 'al right' is not a a way at all. It's not even democracy. And if you keep doing[1] this - detaining innocents and keeping them in the vacuum for years without a trial and without letting them know what is their crime, if tall; and killing hundreds of children in one drone strike(even though your country's Sec.OS was against it) then you have got two clear choices - (1). Either wipe out all those innocents, their supporters, family and non-innocents who get another reason(or show it to innocents) to hit you back. This is already happening in my own country on the northern/top tip - for decades. (2). Or be ready for more aggressive attacks when you are no longer in a position to drone the shit out of entire villages of children and women at your whims(very soon). Well, in this case you might as well be looking for the collective wipe out. you and me together get perished in the shit that we let grow and multiply. On a more gory(violence ahead) note I'll give a very far fetched but possible example - you might find your, on pre-college RTW trip, teenage son's neck slit by some disgruntled, frustrated, suicidal, lost kid who had lost his father or maybe entire family just the way above mentioned - only because he was born in the wrong geography. Of course your RTW kid was innocent too; as innocent as the kid who struck the blade! It's a lot worse than the time of colonization, damn it! Here this you can be me, you, your CIA top boss or just anyone. [1]. By keep doing I want to say keep on accepting as a world citizen.
- berntb 14y ago
  >>killing hundreds of children in one drone strike Hundreds of children? Why? When? How -- where they put in a pile?! >>you are no longer in a position to drone the shit out of entire villages of children and women at your whims(very soon) The point with drone strikes is that they are targeted, not like artillery which do wipe out villages, etc. I stopped reading. Please increase your trolling quality.
  - fakeer 14y ago
    >>where they put in a pile? Did you mean were? No, they were not. A drone strike is not a shot on a dart board by a marksman so they don't need to. >>hundreds in one strike>> My mistake. I was angry and I just mentioned it in flow - I originally wanted to portray remote strikes in general. But drone strike are not sniper shots either! Can I humbly ask you to go here[1] and you might be enlightened http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan >>I stopped reading. I believe that you've stopped reading - literally, especially after reading your last sentence. [1]http://drones.pitchinteractive.com/ http://drones.pitchinteractive.com/
mehta 14y ago
Actually, that's not completely true. afaik, India - which is one of the largest democracies in the world follows the legal process in almost all the terror related cases. The fact that they try to adapt their laws to keep up with terrorism is a different story.
- berntb 14y ago
  Yeah, India is weird. But a democracy with that kind of fraction of the population in total poverty (not to mention the corruption) is not going to react like others. France, as someone else noted, is also different. My model do seem to work for Europe (afaik re GB, Spain, Italy, Germany.)
ucee054 14y ago
A better way? Easy: what Norway did after Breivik. If a country is aping the Israelis, it's failed as a democracy.
- rmc 14y ago
  That was one lone crazy person. Are there other members of Breivik's gang out there? Totally different from an organisation of many people (possibly growing).
  - berntb 14y ago
    ucee054 made the same claim re Breivik a year ago when I posted the same argument -- he didn't answer that same point then either. ucee054 earlier also argued for jewish conpiracy theories, etc. Here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4059752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4059752 Edit: Brevity, spelling error, link.
  - ucee054 14y ago
    Breivik was a zionist nut job, there are many others out there that fit that classification, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League. Similarly, Tim McVeigh was a militia nut job, there are many others like him out there, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Republican_Army http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Republican_Army However, these are white people, so when they blow something up they are just "one lone crazy person". When 19 brown people bring down a couple of trade towers, suddenly it becomes "totally different"? To be consistent with your logic, the Clinton administration should have carpet bombed Elohim City and suspended human rights in Oklahoma, including keeping innocent people locked up without trial, until they got every last Klan nut/ Church nut/Gun nut out there.
    - berntb 14y ago
      Breivik was a single crazy -- not a set of organized terror groups with thousands of members (and hundreds of millions of dollars in finances) which regularly execute complex simultaneous bombings, etc, etc. That makes the existing alQ 2001 at least a million times larger problem than Breivik in his cell 2013. AGAIN, Breivik is only a member of a group in his own mind -- and in your mind. (I seriously wonder if there are more similarities.) Usually at this point, I write "But you know that you're arguing nonsensically, troll". I can't do that in your case, so instead: I hope you're just a sad loser failing to troll and not such a hatemonger that you make bad arguments just to get some support for your conspiracies. Edit: Clarity.
vansteen 14y ago
"Afaik, most every democracy that had a serious terrorist problem over years threw out the law book -- UK, Germany, Israel, Spain, USA, etc." ... Can you precise? I can talk about something I know. I'm french. France got problem with islamic terrorism in the 90's. France is having problem with terrorism for the last 10 years. France has done two wars in the last 3 years (Lybia, Mali and still do stuff in Afganistan). My country is not the best country in the world but we did not end up with some terrible thing like Guantanamo ... I would say the same about many others european countries and it should be the same for USA. If you believe in human rights and dignity, what ever enemy you have to fight, you should not forget the values you are fighting for.
- rmc 14y ago
  Can you precise? Look at the UK & Northern Ireland.
- riggins 14y ago
  "I'm french.... My country is not the best country in the world but we did not end up with some terrible thing like Guantanamo" Let me preface this by saying I'm a big fan of France. In fact, I think France was a good ally recommending caution with Iraq (precisely because they had the most recent experience with fighting a counter-insurgency in an Arab country). But I take exception with your claim that France didn't end up with Gitmo. Read 'A Savage War of Peace: Algeria 1954-1962'. France pretty much invented torturing arab terrorists.
  - vansteen 14y ago
    You are totally right. In the 20th century, France committed ugly things as well. In my previous post, I was talking about the recent period but Algeria is a good example what should be avoid. It's still a sensitive topic here, even 50 years after. I think it makes lose credibility and damage the soul of a country when this kind of episode happen. It's what our countries should avoid.
- berntb 14y ago
  To these examples, afaik you can add Italy, Spain and Germany. For UK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevention_of_Terrorism_Acts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevention_of_Terrorism_Acts Edit: This is about RAF in Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction#Trial_manipulation_and_false_witnesses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction#Trial_manipula... (But certainly, maybe the lawyers were guilty, etc.) Edit: This is about ETA in Spain (not so strong, but still) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA#Human_rights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA#Human_rights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Spain#Basque_separatists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Spain#Basque_se...

by berntb 14y ago

fakeer 14y ago

No, I really don't know any better way but this way that you are supposedly telling others to accept as 'al right' is not a a way at all. It's not even democracy. And if you keep doing[1] this - detaining innocents and keeping them in the vacuum for years without a trial and without letting them know what is their crime, if tall; and killing hundreds of children in one drone strike(even though your country's Sec.OS was against it) then you have got two clear choices - (1). Either wipe out all those innocents, their supporters, family and non-innocents who get another reason(or show it to innocents) to hit you back. This is already happening in my own country on the northern/top tip - for decades. (2). Or be ready for more aggressive attacks when you are no longer in a position to drone the shit out of entire villages of children and women at your whims(very soon). Well, in this case you might as well be looking for the collective wipe out. you and me together get perished in the shit that we let grow and multiply. On a more gory(violence ahead) note I'll give a very far fetched but possible example - you might find your, on pre-college RTW trip, teenage son's neck slit by some disgruntled, frustrated, suicidal, lost kid who had lost his father or maybe entire family just the way above mentioned - only because he was born in the wrong geography. Of course your RTW kid was innocent too; as innocent as the kid who struck the blade! It's a lot worse than the time of colonization, damn it! Here this you can be me, you, your CIA top boss or just anyone. [1]. By keep doing I want to say keep on accepting as a world citizen.

berntb 14y ago
>>killing hundreds of children in one drone strike Hundreds of children? Why? When? How -- where they put in a pile?! >>you are no longer in a position to drone the shit out of entire villages of children and women at your whims(very soon) The point with drone strikes is that they are targeted, not like artillery which do wipe out villages, etc. I stopped reading. Please increase your trolling quality.
- fakeer 14y ago
  >>where they put in a pile? Did you mean were? No, they were not. A drone strike is not a shot on a dart board by a marksman so they don't need to. >>hundreds in one strike>> My mistake. I was angry and I just mentioned it in flow - I originally wanted to portray remote strikes in general. But drone strike are not sniper shots either! Can I humbly ask you to go here[1] and you might be enlightened http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan >>I stopped reading. I believe that you've stopped reading - literally, especially after reading your last sentence. [1]http://drones.pitchinteractive.com/ http://drones.pitchinteractive.com/

mehta 14y ago

Actually, that's not completely true. afaik, India - which is one of the largest democracies in the world follows the legal process in almost all the terror related cases. The fact that they try to adapt their laws to keep up with terrorism is a different story.

berntb 14y ago
Yeah, India is weird. But a democracy with that kind of fraction of the population in total poverty (not to mention the corruption) is not going to react like others. France, as someone else noted, is also different. My model do seem to work for Europe (afaik re GB, Spain, Italy, Germany.)

ucee054 14y ago

A better way? Easy: what Norway did after Breivik. If a country is aping the Israelis, it's failed as a democracy.

rmc 14y ago
That was one lone crazy person. Are there other members of Breivik's gang out there? Totally different from an organisation of many people (possibly growing).
- berntb 14y ago
  ucee054 made the same claim re Breivik a year ago when I posted the same argument -- he didn't answer that same point then either. ucee054 earlier also argued for jewish conpiracy theories, etc. Here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4059752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4059752 Edit: Brevity, spelling error, link.
- ucee054 14y ago
  Breivik was a zionist nut job, there are many others out there that fit that classification, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League. Similarly, Tim McVeigh was a militia nut job, there are many others like him out there, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Republican_Army http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Republican_Army However, these are white people, so when they blow something up they are just "one lone crazy person". When 19 brown people bring down a couple of trade towers, suddenly it becomes "totally different"? To be consistent with your logic, the Clinton administration should have carpet bombed Elohim City and suspended human rights in Oklahoma, including keeping innocent people locked up without trial, until they got every last Klan nut/ Church nut/Gun nut out there.
  - berntb 14y ago
    Breivik was a single crazy -- not a set of organized terror groups with thousands of members (and hundreds of millions of dollars in finances) which regularly execute complex simultaneous bombings, etc, etc. That makes the existing alQ 2001 at least a million times larger problem than Breivik in his cell 2013. AGAIN, Breivik is only a member of a group in his own mind -- and in your mind. (I seriously wonder if there are more similarities.) Usually at this point, I write "But you know that you're arguing nonsensically, troll". I can't do that in your case, so instead: I hope you're just a sad loser failing to troll and not such a hatemonger that you make bad arguments just to get some support for your conspiracies. Edit: Clarity.

vansteen 14y ago

"Afaik, most every democracy that had a serious terrorist problem over years threw out the law book -- UK, Germany, Israel, Spain, USA, etc." ... Can you precise? I can talk about something I know. I'm french. France got problem with islamic terrorism in the 90's. France is having problem with terrorism for the last 10 years. France has done two wars in the last 3 years (Lybia, Mali and still do stuff in Afganistan). My country is not the best country in the world but we did not end up with some terrible thing like Guantanamo ... I would say the same about many others european countries and it should be the same for USA. If you believe in human rights and dignity, what ever enemy you have to fight, you should not forget the values you are fighting for.

rmc 14y ago
Can you precise? Look at the UK & Northern Ireland.
riggins 14y ago
"I'm french.... My country is not the best country in the world but we did not end up with some terrible thing like Guantanamo" Let me preface this by saying I'm a big fan of France. In fact, I think France was a good ally recommending caution with Iraq (precisely because they had the most recent experience with fighting a counter-insurgency in an Arab country). But I take exception with your claim that France didn't end up with Gitmo. Read 'A Savage War of Peace: Algeria 1954-1962'. France pretty much invented torturing arab terrorists.
- vansteen 14y ago
  You are totally right. In the 20th century, France committed ugly things as well. In my previous post, I was talking about the recent period but Algeria is a good example what should be avoid. It's still a sensitive topic here, even 50 years after. I think it makes lose credibility and damage the soul of a country when this kind of episode happen. It's what our countries should avoid.
berntb 14y ago
To these examples, afaik you can add Italy, Spain and Germany. For UK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevention_of_Terrorism_Acts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevention_of_Terrorism_Acts Edit: This is about RAF in Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction#Trial_manipulation_and_false_witnesses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction#Trial_manipula... (But certainly, maybe the lawyers were guilty, etc.) Edit: This is about ETA in Spain (not so strong, but still) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA#Human_rights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA#Human_rights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Spain#Basque_separatists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Spain#Basque_se...