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> not that McCain would have ever gotten it instead! How are you so sure of that? McCain's neither a saint nor a philosopher-king: his personal narcissism seem

> not that McCain would have ever gotten it instead! How are you so sure of that? McCain's neither a saint nor a philosopher-king: his personal narcissism seems to rival Obama's, and he often seems to be successfully flattered and managed by those around him. But he erratically takes stands on principle, and he also has personal experience of both torture and prolonged imprisonment. And in fact he took an anti-torture position which, while it wasn't absolute, was well out ahead of other Congressmen and presidential candidates and was hardly calculated to win votes. There's also the fact that whatever about McCain's personal inclinations, he or any other Republican president would have been under much sharper pressure from others on the issue. The people and institutions who were shouting so much about detention and torture and drone strikes under Bush and then became silent or muted under Obama (or indeed rushed to bestow on him a Nobel Peace Prize) would have continued shouting under McCain.

gruseom 13y ago
his personal narcissism seems to rival Obama's I realize that the view of Obama as a tremendous narcissist has become a right-wing meme, but it seems so odd (kind of like the related view that he's a know-nothing who can't speak without a teleprompter, though that one seems to have died down since the election). I'm curious: how did the narcissism meme get started, and what evidence is cited for it, other than that major politicians tend to have major egos? I'm not trying to make a political point. I don't follow the sources on this and would like someone to explain to me how the people who believe this came to believe it and what arguments they advance for it. (p.s. I think you may have misread the GP, who meant that McCain would not have gotten their vote instead of Obama.)
- scarmig 13y ago
  The teleprompter thing started to die once the entire field of Republican candidates was winnowed down to the single non-crazy one who was perfectly happy to use a teleprompter.
  - gruseom 13y ago
    I thought they all used teleprompters. Who doesn't?
    - scarmig 13y ago
      Michele Bachmann, Newt Gingrich, Hermann Cain. Rick Santorum wanted to ban them. Etc. All with predictable results. This isn't to say they never used teleprompters in their life; just that when they were running for the nomination, it was a useful cudgel to bash Obama and implicitly Mitt. That's why they were known as pretty gaffe-prone candidates.
- ThrowawyAcctLOL 13y ago
  Seriously? Obama's ego really does give appear to be at the upper, Blair/Sarkozy end of the big-politician scale. I could consider an argument that appearances are deceiving here; but no-one with two eyes could look at Obama's personal background and career to date and fail to see how it might, at least, leave someone else with the impression that Obama's unusually prone to feel the world as revolving around him. > (p.s. I think you may have misread the GP, who meant that McCain would not have gotten their vote instead of Obama.) Yes, I did misread it, thank you.
  - deleted 13y ago
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aaronbrethorst 13y ago
This would be the same McCain who, just in December, shot down the idea that Gitmo prisoners could be transferred to the United States, right? http://www.politico.com/story/2012/11/84379.html http://www.politico.com/story/2012/11/84379.html
- ThrowawyAcctLOL 13y ago
  Sure. As I think I made clear, I would have little confidence in McCain's willingness to reliably do the right thing in any given situation. (Taking it as read for the moment that agreeing to bring Guantanamo detainees to the US would be the right thing at this point.) But with the combination of stronger external pressure, (maybe) more cooperative Congressional Republicans, and whatever McCain might have felt like doing once President, it seems possible (very far from assured) that he might have made more progress down the military-tribunals route than Obama has made down either that or the US-trials route. (It would be harder to see McCain reversing his consistent opposition to US trials for the detainees.) The strongest reason to think otherwise would seem to be scepticism that anyone could really make the military-tribunal option work efficiently.
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Shivetya 13y ago
The real reason there would have been a chance under McCain is that the press, the Democrats in the Congress, and rights groups currently co-opted by the current administration would be all over his ass to close it. Instead we have a deafening silence from all these groups that used to squawk daily about Gitmo and other government abuses while the other guy was in office.

gruseom 13y ago

his personal narcissism seems to rival Obama's I realize that the view of Obama as a tremendous narcissist has become a right-wing meme, but it seems so odd (kind of like the related view that he's a know-nothing who can't speak without a teleprompter, though that one seems to have died down since the election). I'm curious: how did the narcissism meme get started, and what evidence is cited for it, other than that major politicians tend to have major egos? I'm not trying to make a political point. I don't follow the sources on this and would like someone to explain to me how the people who believe this came to believe it and what arguments they advance for it. (p.s. I think you may have misread the GP, who meant that McCain would not have gotten their vote instead of Obama.)

scarmig 13y ago
The teleprompter thing started to die once the entire field of Republican candidates was winnowed down to the single non-crazy one who was perfectly happy to use a teleprompter.
- gruseom 13y ago
  I thought they all used teleprompters. Who doesn't?
  - scarmig 13y ago
    Michele Bachmann, Newt Gingrich, Hermann Cain. Rick Santorum wanted to ban them. Etc. All with predictable results. This isn't to say they never used teleprompters in their life; just that when they were running for the nomination, it was a useful cudgel to bash Obama and implicitly Mitt. That's why they were known as pretty gaffe-prone candidates.
ThrowawyAcctLOL 13y ago
Seriously? Obama's ego really does give appear to be at the upper, Blair/Sarkozy end of the big-politician scale. I could consider an argument that appearances are deceiving here; but no-one with two eyes could look at Obama's personal background and career to date and fail to see how it might, at least, leave someone else with the impression that Obama's unusually prone to feel the world as revolving around him. > (p.s. I think you may have misread the GP, who meant that McCain would not have gotten their vote instead of Obama.) Yes, I did misread it, thank you.
- deleted 13y ago
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aaronbrethorst 13y ago

This would be the same McCain who, just in December, shot down the idea that Gitmo prisoners could be transferred to the United States, right? http://www.politico.com/story/2012/11/84379.html http://www.politico.com/story/2012/11/84379.html

ThrowawyAcctLOL 13y ago
Sure. As I think I made clear, I would have little confidence in McCain's willingness to reliably do the right thing in any given situation. (Taking it as read for the moment that agreeing to bring Guantanamo detainees to the US would be the right thing at this point.) But with the combination of stronger external pressure, (maybe) more cooperative Congressional Republicans, and whatever McCain might have felt like doing once President, it seems possible (very far from assured) that he might have made more progress down the military-tribunals route than Obama has made down either that or the US-trials route. (It would be harder to see McCain reversing his consistent opposition to US trials for the detainees.) The strongest reason to think otherwise would seem to be scepticism that anyone could really make the military-tribunal option work efficiently.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

Shivetya 13y ago

The real reason there would have been a chance under McCain is that the press, the Democrats in the Congress, and rights groups currently co-opted by the current administration would be all over his ass to close it. Instead we have a deafening silence from all these groups that used to squawk daily about Gitmo and other government abuses while the other guy was in office.