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It is a means of lowering wage rates among engineers and software developers. Rich for Zuckerberg, with > $10 billion in wealth created by those engineers and

It is a means of lowering wage rates among engineers and software developers. Rich for Zuckerberg, with > $10 billion in wealth created by those engineers and software developers to want to lower their wages even further. Of all the top large technical companies (Microsoft, Apple, Google, Oracle, Intel, Facebook, ...) only Google has a major presence in Manhattan (in Chelsea) for software developers and engineers (it owns the second largest office building in New York City). If Zuckerberg and friends would read a some of Richard Florida, he'd find that young people don't want to live in boring Silicon Valley (many take a long daily commute from SF) but rather in places like Manhattan. Disclosure: I live in Manhattan Lowering the wage rate is not the best way to get technical talent. The best way to do as Google has done and go to where a lot of smart, enterprising people want to live.

objclxt 14y ago
> It is a means of lowering wage rates among engineers and software developers You might think Mark Zuckerberg is in this to bring in international developers and pay them peanuts, but the reality is that most people Google, Facebook, and the like are bringing in on H-1B visas are extremely well compensated, on a par with their US counterparts. Once you account for relocations packages and visa/legal fees (which alone can top $10k) it's often more expensive. Yes, some companies take advantage of international workers. I don't dispute that. But many people who want to enter the US are losing out - they have great job offers, and end up being slaves to an arbitrary lottery with a fairly meaningless cap in the grand scale of total US immigration.
- davidf18 14y ago
  Econ 101: importing labor reduces "scarcity" driving down prices, regardless of paying going rate. It simply keeps rates from going up which would bring more Americans into the "silicon valley" tech labor pool. See Tim Harford's "Undercover Economist" for TL;DR style of understanding economics: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007NIDW1Q/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007NIDW1Q/ If Zuckerberg's is trying to satisfy a labor shortage then he should go to where the labor wants to live, as Google has done which is to establish a major technical presence in Manhattan, where the kind of people he wishes to hire want to live.
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    If Zuckerberg's is trying to satisfy a labor shortage then he should go to where the labor wants to live, as Google has done which is to establish a major technical presence in Manhattan... https://www.facebook.com/careers/locations/newyork https://www.facebook.com/careers/locations/newyork
    - davidf18 14y ago
      Google, by owning the second largest office building in Manhattan has a major technical presence. I'm not aware of any tech (Apple, Amazon, Oracle, Microsoft, Facebook, Intel) firm that comes close to having close to this kind of engineering/software presence in Manhattan.
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    Facebook has a substantial (and expanding) presence in NYC. As does Amazon and various other "tier 1" tech companies. Tech presence in NYC is exploding in no small part due to Californian (and abroad) companies trying to tap into the local talent pool. While you're condescendingly lecturing others on basic economics, I'd suggest you brush up on what's going on in the tech scene in your own back yard. Your understanding of economics is also overly simplistic and fails to account for the utility of the good or service being sold. Reduction in supply only raises prices if the utility of what's being traded is infinite and there are no substitutes. While there are notable outliers in the tech industry in terms of profit per employee, most software businesses are firmly in the $200-300K range when it comes to revenue per head. This represents the upper bound of how much someone can get paid and still make sense - and both NYC and SF/Bay salaries are already a substantial portion of this figure. A reduction in supply will only result in a rise in salaries until you hit this revenue cap. A continued reduction in supply past this point will result in companies going under as they cannot fulfill labor needs at a price they can afford. This becomes a net negative for the tech industry as the only businesses continuing to employ engineers will be the extreme outliers who can generate highly abnormal revenue numbers per employee. Startup costs will also blow through the roof as the amount of capital required to get a business off the ground explodes. The entire industry suffers as overall employment drops. It's frustrating how many people in our field live in a fantasy land where squeezing hard on the supply side will mean they get rich. > "where the kind of people he wishes to hire want to live." This statement requires more elaboration. I'm in Manhattan, but I also understand that not everyone is like me. To claim that the type of software talent companies are looking for are inevitably urban is entirely misguided. There is no shortage of talented techies who would love nothing more than a house, a lawn, a car, and surfing on weekends. NYC contains a certain demographic of talent that absolutely refuses to live anywhere else - and anyone has the capability would be well-advised to try to tap into it, but it is not the only demographic worth courting. This may seem obvious to outsiders but bears repeating sometimes in the city: New York City, and the "type" of people who live there, is not the center of the universe.
general_failure 14y ago
Most immigrants don't mind living in the valley. In face they would love to live in the valley. Source : me who lives in the valley and practically all my friends.
ojbyrne 14y ago
I've met plenty of young people who would prefer to live in boring Silicon Valley rather than places like Manhattan.
Irishsteve 14y ago
They all have big dev centers around the world. FB opened a big engineering office in the UK
Irishsteve 14y ago
They all have big dev centers around the world. FB opened a big engineering office in the UK

objclxt 14y ago

> It is a means of lowering wage rates among engineers and software developers You might think Mark Zuckerberg is in this to bring in international developers and pay them peanuts, but the reality is that most people Google, Facebook, and the like are bringing in on H-1B visas are extremely well compensated, on a par with their US counterparts. Once you account for relocations packages and visa/legal fees (which alone can top $10k) it's often more expensive. Yes, some companies take advantage of international workers. I don't dispute that. But many people who want to enter the US are losing out - they have great job offers, and end up being slaves to an arbitrary lottery with a fairly meaningless cap in the grand scale of total US immigration.

davidf18 14y ago
Econ 101: importing labor reduces "scarcity" driving down prices, regardless of paying going rate. It simply keeps rates from going up which would bring more Americans into the "silicon valley" tech labor pool. See Tim Harford's "Undercover Economist" for TL;DR style of understanding economics: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007NIDW1Q/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007NIDW1Q/ If Zuckerberg's is trying to satisfy a labor shortage then he should go to where the labor wants to live, as Google has done which is to establish a major technical presence in Manhattan, where the kind of people he wishes to hire want to live.
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  If Zuckerberg's is trying to satisfy a labor shortage then he should go to where the labor wants to live, as Google has done which is to establish a major technical presence in Manhattan... https://www.facebook.com/careers/locations/newyork https://www.facebook.com/careers/locations/newyork
  - davidf18 14y ago
    Google, by owning the second largest office building in Manhattan has a major technical presence. I'm not aware of any tech (Apple, Amazon, Oracle, Microsoft, Facebook, Intel) firm that comes close to having close to this kind of engineering/software presence in Manhattan.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  Facebook has a substantial (and expanding) presence in NYC. As does Amazon and various other "tier 1" tech companies. Tech presence in NYC is exploding in no small part due to Californian (and abroad) companies trying to tap into the local talent pool. While you're condescendingly lecturing others on basic economics, I'd suggest you brush up on what's going on in the tech scene in your own back yard. Your understanding of economics is also overly simplistic and fails to account for the utility of the good or service being sold. Reduction in supply only raises prices if the utility of what's being traded is infinite and there are no substitutes. While there are notable outliers in the tech industry in terms of profit per employee, most software businesses are firmly in the $200-300K range when it comes to revenue per head. This represents the upper bound of how much someone can get paid and still make sense - and both NYC and SF/Bay salaries are already a substantial portion of this figure. A reduction in supply will only result in a rise in salaries until you hit this revenue cap. A continued reduction in supply past this point will result in companies going under as they cannot fulfill labor needs at a price they can afford. This becomes a net negative for the tech industry as the only businesses continuing to employ engineers will be the extreme outliers who can generate highly abnormal revenue numbers per employee. Startup costs will also blow through the roof as the amount of capital required to get a business off the ground explodes. The entire industry suffers as overall employment drops. It's frustrating how many people in our field live in a fantasy land where squeezing hard on the supply side will mean they get rich. > "where the kind of people he wishes to hire want to live." This statement requires more elaboration. I'm in Manhattan, but I also understand that not everyone is like me. To claim that the type of software talent companies are looking for are inevitably urban is entirely misguided. There is no shortage of talented techies who would love nothing more than a house, a lawn, a car, and surfing on weekends. NYC contains a certain demographic of talent that absolutely refuses to live anywhere else - and anyone has the capability would be well-advised to try to tap into it, but it is not the only demographic worth courting. This may seem obvious to outsiders but bears repeating sometimes in the city: New York City, and the "type" of people who live there, is not the center of the universe.

general_failure 14y ago

Most immigrants don't mind living in the valley. In face they would love to live in the valley. Source : me who lives in the valley and practically all my friends.

ojbyrne 14y ago

I've met plenty of young people who would prefer to live in boring Silicon Valley rather than places like Manhattan.

Irishsteve 14y ago

They all have big dev centers around the world. FB opened a big engineering office in the UK

Irishsteve 14y ago

They all have big dev centers around the world. FB opened a big engineering office in the UK