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When I saw the graphs, what I immediately noticed was not how much emphasis parents place on intelligence, but rather how much emphasis they place on conformity
by kijin 14y ago
When I saw the graphs, what I immediately noticed was not how much emphasis parents place on intelligence, but rather how much emphasis they place on conformity. The article talks about both, but it talks more about the former than the latter. But I find the latter a lot more interesting.
Terms like "agreeable", "socially mature", and "well balanced" (versus "attention seeking", presumably a bad thing) can signify that parents place quite a bit of importance on how well their children conform to social norms and expectations. The article mentions bedtime rules, but this can also extend to long-entrenched traditions in "Old World" societies.
On the other hand, the fact that American parents don't use these terms, and instead use terms like "independent" and "rebellious", shows that American culture places a high value on thinking and living outside of the box. The lack of "calm" and "happy" might make life more stressful for parents and children alike, but at the same time, the term "adaptable" implies that Americans expect the world around them to change quickly, and when it does, you gotta change, too. America is newer and changes faster. It's not surprising that Americans value qualities that make people innovative, disruptive, and not bound by any rule that they didn't make by themselves.
As a person who has lived half his life in a society where being "well rounded", conformity, and obedience to authority are considered a child's primary virtues, I must confess that I am rather partial to the "American" style, tradition be damned.
Edit: There also seems to be a relevant difference between Northern/Western Europe and Southern Europe, just as there is a large cultural difference between Northeastern/Western U.S. and the Southeast. So maybe the comparison should be between industrial regions and traditionally agricultural regions, or between relatively secular regions and deeply religions regions, rather than between America and Europe as a whole. Seems obvious in some ways.
- RivieraKid 14y agoInteresting, I find that social norms in the US are more rigid and Europe seems to be more laid back. (Two examples that come to mind: nudity and the "base" system in dating.)
- kijin 14y agoSexual norms are not necessarily representative of a society's overall openness to change. My impression is that America (modulo some parts of the South) makes much more fuss celebrating innovation than most of the rest of the world does, and even if this is not a good reflector of the status quo, it certainly has a long-term impact on how people think.
- sultezdukes 14y agoI don't know where you're deriving social norms from conformity. If anything, with Europe being traditionally much more leftist than the U.S. there has been much more conformity of the individual to the state in Europe.
- Dewie 14y agoStereotypically, USA is more socially conservative than Western- and Northern-Europe.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- HarryHirsch 14y ago> As a person who has lived half his life in a society where being "well rounded", conformity, and obedience to authority are considered a child's primary virtues, I must confess that I am quite partial to the American style, tradition be damned. My observation is that the value placed on conformity is the US is astounding. Just take a look at the undergrad girls on any university campus. They all look so alike; it is almost as if they were wearing uniform, it's staggering. Also: the importance of "rules".
- afterburner 14y agoTeenagers and young adolescents are desperate to fit in everywhere though, I'm not sure I would take that as a sign of the society as a whole. I would want to see how this compares to university outside the US, as well.
- HarryHirsch 14y agoI never noticed the overbearing desire to fit in when I was at uni in Britain and Germany. There is this idea that conformity is valued highly in East Asian cultures, and I have never been there and consequenly can't tell if this is true. But in America there is this talk of freedom, individualism and stuff, and it just simply isn't so.
- saraid216 14y ago> There is this idea that conformity is valued highly in East Asian cultures, and I have never been there and consequenly can't tell if this is true. Conformity is highly valued in all human cultures. It's what makes a culture a culture, what stabilizes and maintains it. The difference is more that Americans like to delude themselves with self-aggrandizing rhetoric, but don't have the experience and training to actually put it into practice.
- 3A2D50 14y agoWhat part of the US are you talking about? This hasn't been my experience at all (DC metropolitan area).
- flexie 14y agoAs someone who has lived on both continents myself I find that Americans are more conformist and worried about stepping outside cultural norms than Europeans.
- trhtrsh 14y agoI assume you are not referring to Switzerland.
- rmk2 14y agoWhat you see as expressions of freedom and liberty can just as well mean the polar opposite. Calling somebody "rebellious" means they do not fit in a given system (which is bad if you represent the system concerned), while calling somebody "adaptable" means they will fit in no matter how the system changes; they are, in other words, malleable. In that sense, being independent can also mean the opposite of being socially minded, i.e. being egotistic. Rebellious, adaptable and individual in a commercial sense might mean somebody resisting the mainstream and innovating. On the other hand, from a systemic point of view, it can denote an egotistical and spineless person that doesn't fit in (which is bad). Whether the strong focus on individuality, adaptability, rebellion and cognitive advancement is positive or negative will ultimately hinge on your overall image of the wider society creating these values.
- anigbrowl 14y agoI'm not sure about your extrapolation here. For example, labeling a child 'rebellious' isn't necessarily praise, it might just as easily express disappointment with conformist expectations. I have to say I never heard the phrase 'oppositional defiance disorder' until I came to the US. In Europe people would just regard such kids as stubborn, but not necessarily assume it was the result of a pathology.
- PKop 14y agoIsn't it more likely that these descriptions are what the parents want to see in their children? As for 'rebellious', I see that as more of a humble-brag. "Oh, he's so rebellious, hehe". My takeaway from the data is these are the qualities that the parents in the respective countries hope their children possess, or perhaps that they've instilled in them...since in any meaningful sense most young children would be fairly similar across cultures, the differences the researchers perceived in the parents' answers must have been biases from the parents themselves.
- trhtrsh 14y agoYou see "rebellious" as a brag because you think "rebellious" is a positive trait, not because the surveyed person thinks so.
- PKop 14y agoOr I could say that you see at as not positive because you don't think it is. My point though was that, in my opinion, from my experience, people describe their children how they want to see them, or in their version of positive ways whatever those may be for each person (I'm thinking of young children here mostly). I mean can a 2 or 3 year old really be more "happy" or "rebellious" in any meaningful different degree from any other child of same age, in the aggregate? It's projection.. That's what I'm getting at.
- tensor 14y agoMy anecdotal observation is that the reality in US/Can is opposite of the desire. While parents say they value thinking, independence, and rebelliousness, they actually teach a lot of anti-intellectualism and conformity. Genuine "outside the norm" behaviour is frowned upon and "thinking outside the box" and "rebelliousness" often means denying scientific position on well studied problems.
- youngerdryas 14y agoMaybe this explains a strange situation. Europe is bigger than the US, is well educated, free and prosperous. You would think that more technological innovation would come from Europe, or at least it would be on par, but that is far from the case. There have been several articles on this lately but none seem to have an answer.
- analog 14y agoGenuinely curious, how do you measure innovation? I had a quick google for some data and the best measure I could find was this[1], which places the US on a similar level to the European/Scandinavian countries with strong economies. [1] http://www.globalinnovationindex.org/gii/main/fullreport/files/Global%20Innovation%20Index%202012.pdf http://www.globalinnovationindex.org/gii/main/fullreport/fil...
- youngerdryas 14y agoI really wish there was actual competition to the US but there is not. I can make an argument and cite findings that show that China is more free than Europe but it is still patently false. What is the EU equivalent of NASA, Apple, Google, SpaceX etc. Competition is good for all, pretending is not.
- analog 14y agoSo it's just your gut feeling that the US is more innovative than the EU? Edit: That comes across as more snarky than it's meant.
- youngerdryas 14y agoIn the same way it is my gut feeling the EU is more free than China.
- analog 14y agoWell sure, but you could back that up with data[1]. With the innovation index the data apparently disputes your gut feeling. So which do you trust? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices